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Mormons and the Word of Wisdom

Bronco70 said:
I hesitate to even say this, because it is a broad generalization, but I've always felt that people who fall away from the church because another member "offended" them were probably looking for an reason to leave anyway. It seems like it has to be deeper than getting your feelings hurt. If the church isn't right for you, I can respect that. But be honest about it.
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I can see some of the cases being for that reason. However I can promise you it is not all.
 
Bronco70 said:
I hesitate to even say this, because it is a broad generalization, but I've always felt that people who fall away from the church because another member "offended" them were probably looking for an reason to leave anyway. It seems like it has to be deeper than getting your feelings hurt. If the church isn't right for you, I can respect that. But be honest about it.
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Engage Rant Mode

Yes, let's be honest about it. It is a VERY VERY BROAD generalization. People do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons, many, if not most, of which may not be reasons why you'd do something. You're projecting motives onto other people based how YOU see things. And, as you surely must know, most people see things differently than you do.

As a former LDS (nearly 4 decades active membership in Church), and who left for what I believe to be very valid reasons (over which I stewed and stewed for years before making the break), few things irritate me more than when others try to explain away and minimize my decision by offering some trite cliche (e.g., wanted to sin, didn't really have a testimony, was proud/arrogant, was disobedient, etc., etc.). It was, in my case, a painful and wrenching decision, but also the right one. And having previously spent much time embedded in the ExMo social network (no longer, I grew tired of it many years ago), I can tell you that people's departure stories are as varied as the people who decide to leave.

Although I will say that after hearing a number of these stories, certain common broad themes do emerge, but they apply on a case by case basis and not universally.

Disengage Rant Mode

Nothing against you Bronco. I've just got writer's block today, so I'm in a grumpy mood.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
Engage Rant Mode

Yes, let's be honest about it. It is a VERY VERY BROAD generalization. People do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons, many, if not most, of which may not be reasons why you'd do something. You're projecting motives onto other people based how YOU see things. And, as you surely must know, most people see things differently than you do.

As a former LDS (nearly 4 decades active membership in Church), and who left for what I believe to be very valid reasons (over which I stewed and stewed for years before making the break), few things irritate me more than when others try to explain away and minimize my decision by offering some trite cliche (e.g., wanted to sin, didn't really have a testimony, was proud/arrogant, was disobedient, etc., etc.). It was, in my case, a painful and wrenching decision, but also the right one. And having previously spent much time embedded in the ExMo social network (no longer, I grew tired of it many years ago), I can tell you that people's departure stories are as varied as the people who decide to leave.

Although I will say that after hearing a number of these stories, certain common broad themes do emerge, but they apply on a case by case basis and not universally.

Disengage Rant Mode

Nothing against you Bronco. I've just got writer's block today, so I'm in a grumpy mood.
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JEJ, in Bronco's defense he was referring to a specific group of people who leave the church (and qualified it with a criterion) and wasn't making a statement on all who leave the church, as I'm assuming by what you wrote that the reasons you left don't pertain to the criterion of the group he was addressing.
 
Stoked said:
I can see some of the cases being for that reason. However I can promise you it is not all.
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jimmy eat jazz said:
Nothing against you Bronco. I've just got writer's block today, so I'm in a grumpy mood.
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No offense would be taken, on my end. I truly do appreciate the perspective.

infection said:
JEJ, in Bronco's defense he was referring to a specific group of people who leave the church (and qualified it with a criterion) and wasn't making a statement on all who leave the church, as I'm assuming by what you wrote that the reasons you left don't pertain to the criterion of the group he was addressing.
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Spot on, infection. People leave the church all the time, for various reasons. Usually, it's probably a combination of things. I can respect that. I believe you should follow your heart, and if you do your due diligence, and your heart tells you it isn't right, you should listen. I certainly don't believe that everyone who leaves is bad, and/or did so for the wrong reasons. But I think there is a segment (perhaps small) of the disaffected that don't want to admit the real reasons for leaving, so they claim offense. These are the kind of people that, basically, believe, but just don't want to put in the effort. Offense is an easy out. I know people like this. But again, this doesn't apply to everyone who has left...

Edit: I think, a lot of the time, it makes it easier to justify your decision to friends and family, and possibly soften their judgments.
 
Scat said:
I have a couple of different perspectives.

I grew up in S. Jordan. Back then it was a very rural, farming community... and 99.9% LDS. As a kid I had exactly zero exposure to any influence that wasn't LDS. In my ward there was maybe 3 families that weren't active. They were Mormon, just not active. Guess what? My friends and I had little to do with them but conversely, they had little to do with us. They avoided us just as much as we avoided them. There wasn't any bad blood between us, it's just the way it was.

Fast forward to when I get married. My wife and I move to California. What an eye opener. My first job there I worked with the most eclectic group of people you could ever assemble. There was Zach from Lebanon (Lebanese food is wonderful by the way). David and Sal from Iran. Lena from Israel. Tina, the Catholic from Arkansas. Ruth, a prototypical Hollywood Jewish princess. A woman from Singapore (I forget her name). And me, the very white Utah Mormon boy. There was lot's of good natured ribbing, lot's of discussions about political and religious differences, but I learned more in that one year than I had in the 23 years prior to that.

In California I also learned that Utah Mormons ARE very different. Being Mormon in SoCal was much more laid back. In Utah there was/is much more pressure to be a "good Mormon"

Fast forward, my wife and I have three kids while in SoCal and decide to move back to Utah so the kids can be around family growing up. We're trying to raise them to be open and receptive to all races and religions. My oldest daughter was 7. She finds very quickly that she's the outsider even though she's Mormon and active. During Sunday School she mentions having gone to a Methodist service when she lived in SoCal and gets a 10 minute scolding from her teacher about wandering from the path of righteousness. She also finds that when she's at church or church activities she's treated well but the next day at school she's the outcast. Of course she makes friends at school with kids that are not of the faith. This only hastens her expulsion. By the time she's 12 she's done with Mormon kids. When called into the Bishop's office to find out why she's not attending church she flat out tells him that she feels unwelcome and that the other kids in the ward treat her poorly, including the bishop's daughter. Well, that gets me a call into the Bishop's office about my daughter's poor attitude. This was the beginning of the end of my being active. The Bishop couldn't see that his kid as well as others in the ward were being exclusive and highly judgmental, just that my daughter was the problem and that I wasn't doing a good job of raising her.

I'm still receptive to the doctrine and teachings of the LDS faith, it's just many of the people that I can't stand. If more people were like Bronco and Zulu it would serve the church tremendously.
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Scat, sorry to hear that. I hope you'll find your way back one of these days.

If it helps, I've been to Jewish, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, and several non-denominational services throughout my life, all the while being an active LDS member. In fact on Thursday I'm taking my family to a nonLDS church to help the homeless on Thanksgiving for a few hours. I've never felt ostracized for any of that; in fact, most of the time my fellow LDS members have thought that reaching out like that is a good thing. So, hopefully you and your family were just the victim of some "near-sighted" individuals who don't represent the larger church well.
 
Ya, I'm talking about the people that leave just because someone offended them. Plenty of valid reasons to leave the Church and that's fine. But being offended isn't one of them. Sometimes I just hear people gripe and that seems more and more what it's about. Which to me is pathetic. Not saying that's anyone here just a general rant there directed at a specific group.

To me that applies to any religion out there.
 
Bronco70 said:
My neighbor, who has lived in our current ward for about 8 years, and is an active and participating member, confided in me that he still feels much like an outsider.
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This is kind of how we feel in my current ward. This ward is very clique-ish, and we're on the outside looking in. It doesn't bother me so much as I've never been one to care about other people's opinions, but my wife hates it here (she's very much a person who needs to feel liked). We've lived here over six years and have done exactly one social thing with other members of the ward outside of church activities, while there are crap loads of "groups" going out to do stuff. In fact, my wife once asked another woman in the ward a question and that lady literally looked my wife in the eye and turned around to start a conversation with someone else. Childish, really, if you ask me.
The ward we lived in before this one was awesome. There were always groups doing stuff together, and everyone was always invited. We all looked for ways to get everyone involved.
 
bigb said:
This is kind of how we feel in my current ward. This ward is very clique-ish, and we're on the outside looking in. It doesn't bother me so much as I've never been one to care about other people's opinions, but my wife hates it here (she's very much a person who needs to feel liked). We've lived here over six years and have done exactly one social thing with other members of the ward outside of church activities, while there are crap loads of "groups" going out to do stuff. In fact, my wife once asked another woman in the ward a question and that lady literally looked my wife in the eye and turned around to start a conversation with someone else. Childish, really, if you ask me.
The ward we lived in before this one was awesome. There were always groups doing stuff together, and everyone was always invited. We all looked for ways to get everyone involved.
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That sucks, bigb. What's worse is that, imo, it's not limited to LDS wards .. not even close. It's humanity in general, which is worse. I have a total hypothesis on why this is, btw, and anyone is welcome to ask my opinion .. or tell me to stuff it. (My theory is based on archaeological evidence - empirical - and historical evidence.)
 
JazzMan89 said:
Question from somebody who's not a Mormon...what exactly is a ward? I've always been confused by that. Thanks in advance.
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A "ward" is a local congregation. Here in Utah, they average about 300 members. A group of 8-9 wards are called "stakes". A group of stakes are called "regions". A group of regions is an "area".
 
PKM said:
That sucks, bigb. What's worse is that, imo, it's not limited to LDS wards .. not even close. It's humanity in general, which is worse. I have a total hypothesis on why this is, btw, and anyone is welcome to ask my opinion .. or tell me to stuff it. (My theory is based on archaeological evidence - empirical - and historical evidence.)
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Thanks, man. My wife has a tendency to rub people the wrong way and not everyone gets her sense of humor right away. However, she has MANY, MANY lifelong friends, so people who get to know her love her forever. It's the people who don't truly give a rat's *** about others that lose out on what she has to offer.
 
bigb said:
Thanks, man. My wife has a tendency to rub people the wrong way and not everyone gets her sense of humor right away. However, she has MANY, MANY lifelong friends, so people who get to know her love her forever. It's the people who don't truly give a rat's *** about others that lose out on what she has to offer.
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Sounds like my wife, seriously. Mine has the heart of a lion, but a mouth of one too. SHe speaks her mind and most can't take it .. so she has been left with only lifelong friends. She's a fantastic friend to those that can take the TRUTH!!! (as she calls it, lol)
 
PKM said:
Sounds like my wife, seriously. Mine has the heart of a lion, but a mouth of one too. SHe speaks her mind and most can't take it .. so she has been left with only lifelong friends. She's a fantastic friend to those that can take the TRUTH!!! (as she calls it, lol)
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That's my wife exactly. She has no problem saying exactly what she thinks.
 
I think every ward has its cliques. Every ward I've been in, anyway. But PKM is right, that behavior happens in any collection of humanity. On the other hand, I've found it kinda helps identify the people that I wouldn't like anyway...
 
Bronco70 said:
I think every ward has its cliques. Every ward I've been in, anyway. But PKM is right, that behavior happens in any collection of humanity. On the other hand, I've found it kinda helps identify the people that I wouldn't like anyway...
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All too true.
 
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