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Mother Mistakes Daughter for Intruder, Shoots and Kills Her.

babe said:
OK, my point was that a good discussion might benefit from staying on topic, and not particularly pushing some hobby horse. If the topic is how to achieve a community that has standards for responsible conduct, like the gun rules, it's not benefited by phrasing it in the precise terms used by total gun rights abolitionists. That might make a good thread on it's own merit. But if you have all the guns in official government-approved hands then the issue of responsibility goes to how to weed out the Stalin's and Pol Pots who sometimes just walk into the political store and walk out with all the guns it takes to kill millions. While that has not happened in any British commonwealth country since the Magna Carta, and everything might be just fine in NZ or Australia, Game's OP was actually about some gun rules a community could put on the law books as a deterrent to obvious irresponsible use of a gun. Kinda like traffic rules. I liked that thread.
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That makes sense. We've had the gun rights abolition threads for sure. This is a thread about the standards to which gun owners should be held.

In response to a few things you said earlier, I will take the chance that an unidentified intruder/family member kills me before I shoot them just in case. If it were my son or my wife or my sister paying a surprise visit and I killed them I would likely no longer want to live anyway.
 
I once had a situatiom were I legit thought that someone was in my home after I went to bed.

My wife was working graveshift at her job and had gone to work for the night. It was a friday night and by coincidence only my 1 year old was at home with me. It was probably 11:00ish and I was in bed, I was just about to fall asleep and I hear a loud bang. It was clearly from inside my home. My rot/lad mix was immediately on her feet growling. I jumped out of bed and my safe is in my nightstand next to my bed. I hit the code (takes me like 3 seconds) and grabbed my 9mm. I keep my firearams (and other things) in there, my firearms are always loaded and ready to fire. Relax gun control nuts. It is a multi number code known to only me and my wife. I don't even let my kids touch that safe let alone punch in random numbers.

I called my rotlab to me and with 9mm in hand I opened my bedroom door. I cleared the hallway and then immediately went to the room directly across the hall to check on my 1 year old. She was sound asleep and I made sure no one was in the room. Then I cleared the bathroom and other bedroom at the end of the hall. The entire time the rotlab is glued to my hip constantly growling. My Dauchsund/****zu has joined the party and is also growling. So I head from the hallway to the rest of the house. There is a light switch there with 3 switches. So I bring up my 9mm. and snap on the light into the hallway, front room (front door) and living room (back door) and jump back into the hallway. I clear the front room as from my position I can see that entire room but am shielded from the living room. Nothing. Then I chnage angles and move forward until I can see into the living room. The backdoor is wide open! I am already nervous and on edge, as soon as I see that the door is open my heart starts going 900 miles an hour. At this point I fully believe I am going to come face to face with a burgler/rapist/thief/whatever. So I yell into the home. Something along the lines of "I am armed and with multiple dogs. Show yuourselves now or I WILL ****ing kill you if I find you!". Nothing. So I clear the rest of the house. Upstairs and down, at gun point. Not a damn thing. I checked every closet, room, and hiding spot. Then I proceed to the back door. I flip on the outside light and look into the backyward from the door way. Again at gun point ready to fire if needs be. Then I notice that it is very windy and that the weather stripping on my back door makes it difficult to close. So things like a strong wind will blow it open. I close the door and lock it.

The point of this is that I was armed and prepared to defend my 1 year old with my life. But I voiced a very loud warning and turned on the light in order to make sure of what I was seeing. I most certainly did NOT want to fire my weapon at anyone. And if someone had been found or presented themselves I would have held them at gun point till I could get the police there if given the chance.

It took me about 2 1/2 hours to get back to sleep. I slept in my daughters room next to her bed that night, so did the dogs.

I am very much for gun rights. However, that does NOT remove my personal responsibility or ability to make smart decisions.

GF has a good point about holding gun owners responsible. Where that line is though I am not sure. But it has to be somewhere.
 
Stoked said:
I once had a situatiom were I legit thought that someone was in my home after I went to bed.

My wife was working graveshift at her job and had gone to work for the night. It was a friday night and by coincidence only my 1 year old was at home with me. It was probably 11:00ish and I was in bed, I was just about to fall asleep and I hear a loud bang. It was clearly from inside my home. My rot/lad mix was immediately on her feet growling. I jumped out of bed and my safe is in my nightstand next to my bed. I hit the code (takes me like 3 seconds) and grabbed my 9mm. I keep my firearams (and other things) in there, my firearms are always loaded and ready to fire. Relax gun control nuts. It is a multi number code known to only me and my wife. I don't even let my kids touch that safe let alone punch in random numbers.

I called my rotlab to me and with 9mm in hand I opened my bedroom door. I cleared the hallway and then immediately went to the room directly across the hall to check on my 1 year old. She was sound asleep and I made sure no one was in the room. Then I cleared the bathroom and other bedroom at the end of the hall. The entire time the rotlab is glued to my hip constantly growling. My Dauchsund/****zu has joined the party and is also growling. So I head from the hallway to the rest of the house. There is a light switch there with 3 switches. So I bring up my 9mm. and snap on the light into the hallway, front room (front door) and living room (back door) and jump back into the hallway. I clear the front room as from my position I can see that entire room but am shielded from the living room. Nothing. Then I chnage angles and move forward until I can see into the living room. The backdoor is wide open! I am already nervous and on edge, as soon as I see that the door is open my heart starts going 900 miles an hour. At this point I fully believe I am going to come face to face with a burgler/rapist/thief/whatever. So I yell into the home. Something along the lines of "I am armed and with multiple dogs. Show yuourselves now or I WILL ****ing kill you if I find you!". Nothing. So I clear the rest of the house. Upstairs and down, at gun point. Not a damn thing. I checked every closet, room, and hiding spot. Then I proceed to the back door. I flip on the outside light and look into the backyward from the door way. Again at gun point ready to fire if needs be. Then I notice that it is very windy and that the weather stripping on my back door makes it difficult to close. So things like a strong wind will blow it open. I close the door and lock it.

The point of this is that I was armed and prepared to defend my 1 year old with my life. But I voiced a very loud warning and turned on the light in order to make sure of what I was seeing. I most certainly did NOT want to fire my weapon at anyone. And if someone had been found or presented themselves I would have held them at gun point till I could get the police there if given the chance.

It took me about 2 1/2 hours to get back to sleep. I slept in my daughters room next to her bed that night, so did the dogs.

I am very much for gun rights. However, that does NOT remove my personal responsibility or ability to make smart decisions.

GF has a good point about holding gun owners responsible. Where that line is though I am not sure. But it has to be somewhere.
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The best advice I've been fortunate enough to receive is that you should not "clear" your house. Absolutely get to you children and make sure they are safe. Then get them all to a safe area. In your case the upstairs was safe. Now, call police and remain in a position between any possible threat and you children. If noises happen insist they present themselves. That's it. Be in the best possible defensive position and be ready to defend that position. It's your house. You know the choke points, you know the fatal funnels. Use that information to your advantage, don't give an inch, but don't throw the hail mary pass, either. This is not a do or die situation. It's your house. Your home court. Make them try to beat you. They can't!

Not preaching. I think you did far better than most would have in the situation. And I'm not saying I would have been someone who would have done better. Sitting at my computer I can analyze in a way I couldn't in real life. I would want to know what was making the noise. I would want to check everything out so that I could go back to sleep. I'm not a pro. I'm not an expert. I express my opinions here but they are just that. I'm not a firearms authority. I don't own any firearms. I sold all mine because it's a responsibility I don't want to bare. I prefer drinking to worrying about bumps in the night,
 
Gameface said:
The best advice I've been fortunate enough to receive is that you should not "clear" your house. Absolutely get to you children and make sure they are safe. Then get them all to a safe area. In your case the upstairs was safe. Now, call police and remain in a position between any possible threat and you children. If noises happen insist they present themselves. That's it. Be in the best possible defensive position and be ready to defend that position. It's your house. You know the choke points, you know the fatal funnels. Use that information to your advantage, don't give an inch, but don't throw the hail mary pass, either. This is not a do or die situation. It's your house. Your home court. Make them try to beat you. They can't!

Not preaching. I think you did far better than most would have in the situation. And I'm not saying I would have been someone who would have done better. Sitting at my computer I can analyze in a way I couldn't in real life. I would want to know what was making the noise. I would want to check everything out so that I could go back to sleep. I'm not a pro. I'm not an expert. I express my opinions here but they are just that. I'm not a firearms authority. I don't own any firearms. I sold all mine because it's a responsibility I don't want to bare. I prefer drinking to worrying about bumps in the night,
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Oh certainly thinking back on it there are things I would have done differently. I am no pro, expert or anything else on firearms. Far from it actually. But even in this tense situation when my stress and adrenaline was thru the rough I was able to not charge wildly into the dark and shoot at dark shapes.
 
Gameface said:
The best advice I've been fortunate enough to receive is that you should not "clear" your house. Absolutely get to you children and make sure they are safe. Then get them all to a safe area. In your case the upstairs was safe. Now, call police and remain in a position between any possible threat and you children. If noises happen insist they present themselves. That's it. Be in the best possible defensive position and be ready to defend that position. It's your house. You know the choke points, you know the fatal funnels. Use that information to your advantage, don't give an inch, but don't throw the hail mary pass, either. This is not a do or die situation. It's your house. Your home court. Make them try to beat you. They can't!

Not preaching. I think you did far better than most would have in the situation. And I'm not saying I would have been someone who would have done better. Sitting at my computer I can analyze in a way I couldn't in real life. I would want to know what was making the noise. I would want to check everything out so that I could go back to sleep. I'm not a pro. I'm not an expert. I express my opinions here but they are just that. I'm not a firearms authority. I don't own any firearms. I sold all mine because it's a responsibility I don't want to bare. I prefer drinking to worrying about bumps in the night,
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Sounds like good advice until you realize he would have been calling the cops out to close his door while he hunkered down in his room. I don't own a gun. Like anyone, I've been woken at night by unidentifiable noises. I've walked the house, unarmed, to figure out what they are. Fortunately the sound has never (at least to this date) been caused by a killer. Would I be better off doing this with a gun? I'm not sure. Maybe next time I should at least grab a baseball bat.
 
If these measures had already been in place, would they have prevented the tragedies he cited?


Sent from the JazzFanz app
 
BabyPeterzz said:
Maybe, maybe not. I'll bet it would've stopped at least one. If it's only one life, is it worth it?
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For years we had the AdCouncil ads running with a gunshot and the dead kid, and the moral imperative "Not one more". So how many people die from guzzling soda pop too fast, say maybe with some heart issue 9or some gastric condition, and die? How many people choke on their food, and die? How many cancers have resulted in death, that were caused by sunlight? I know.

Let's ban the sun, pass laws against people sitting in swimsuits on the beach. No more food, and certainly no more carbonated water.

If you're gonna go there, you need to keep up with the events where guns save lives just as well.

Larry Pratt says "It's not about gun control, It's about control". If that's the case, what is your freedom worth?
 
BabyPeterzz said:
Maybe, maybe not. I'll bet it would've stopped at least one. If it's only one life, is it worth it?
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What about this would have changed anything or saved one life?

I'm not opposed to the action. It changes almost nothing.
 
fishonjazz said:
What did he do?
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He bypassed the Legislature to enact some laws about who needs to do the background check when selling guns. Some people at gun shows, he thinks, might not really be regulated already.

I agree with Game, practically meaningless rules. The Past is not Prologue, every year "perfect" citizens buy guns and pass the background check, and then go do something wrong with them.
If anyone suspects they won't pass the background check they go private somehow, buy them from some drug-running hoodie or something, totally unregulated.

The really needless deaths/injuries are ordinary people who have no evil intent, but don't know how to handle a gun responsibly. Some sorts of laws could educate/raise awareness and stop a lot of deaths.
 
babe said:
He bypassed the Legislature to enact some laws about who needs to do the background check when selling guns. Some people at gun shows, he thinks, might not really be regulated already.

I agree with Game, practically meaningless rules. The Past is not Prologue, every year "perfect" citizens buy guns and pass the background check, and then go do something wrong with them.
If anyone suspects they won't pass the background check they go private somehow, buy them from some drug-running hoodie or something, totally unregulated.

The really needless deaths/injuries are ordinary people who have no evil intent, but don't know how to handle a gun responsibly. Some sorts of laws could educate/raise awareness and stop a lot of deaths.
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Why does America have such a uniquely high gun violence rate? Additionally, what policies are conservatives bringing forth to reduce these gun violence rates? I would love to hear of some concrete examples
 
dalamon said:
Why does America have such a uniquely high gun violence rate? Additionally, what policies are conservatives bringing forth to reduce these gun violence rates? I would love to hear of some concrete examples
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Because we are stressed out from saving the world from radical dictators.
Conservatives are not the problem.
Kids..
 
dalamon said:
Why does America have such a uniquely high gun violence rate? Additionally, what policies are conservatives bringing forth to reduce these gun violence rates? I would love to hear of some concrete examples
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It's the American Myth of Freedom.


Like when Hitler rounded up folks for the concentration camps, nobody knew what freedom was or how to pretend you have it. The folks followed orders. No sense of empowerment, no sense of capability to take action of any kind. All around the world, people live with victim mentality except in America. Even our hopeless, downtrodden, and exploited professional victims of racism, sexism, or whatever, still have the mentality to take some kind of overt action when they are frustrated or abused.

We done watched our own TV too much, and sorta think that's what people do.

Not like in third world countries where you have no hope, or Canada, where it's Eh? the answer to everything.
 
babe said:
He bypassed the Legislature to enact some laws about who needs to do the background check when selling guns. Some people at gun shows, he thinks, might not really be regulated already.

I agree with Game, practically meaningless rules. The Past is not Prologue, every year "perfect" citizens buy guns and pass the background check, and then go do something wrong with them.
If anyone suspects they won't pass the background check they go private somehow, buy them from some drug-running hoodie or something, totally unregulated.

The really needless deaths/injuries are ordinary people who have no evil intent, but don't know how to handle a gun responsibly. Some sorts of laws could educate/raise awareness and stop a lot of deaths.
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Which is more difficult?

1. Going to a gun show and buying from an unregulated dealer with no background check?

2. Finding a drug-running hoodie to get you a piece?

Why some of us are so opposed to the feds doing anything to make it harder for dangerous people to get guns is beyond me. Nothing will fully solve the problem, but we have to start somewhere. We're like the guy at work that won't start a project until everything is lined up, ready to go.
 
BabyPeterzz said:
Which is more difficult?

1. Going to a gun show and buying from an unregulated dealer with no background check?

2. Finding a drug-running hoodie to get you a piece?

Why some of us are so opposed to the feds doing anything to make it harder for dangerous people to get guns is beyond me. Nothing will fully solve the problem, but we have to start somewhere. We're like the guy at work that won't start a project until everything is lined up, ready to go.
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This.
And it doesn't matter which method is easier. We should try to stop both act's from happening
 
BabyPeterzz said:
Which is more difficult?

1. Going to a gun show and buying from an unregulated dealer with no background check?

2. Finding a drug-running hoodie to get you a piece?

Why some of us are so opposed to the feds doing anything to make it harder for dangerous people to get guns is beyond me. Nothing will fully solve the problem, but we have to start somewhere. We're like the guy at work that won't start a project until everything is lined up, ready to go.
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BP, are you aware that anyone in the business of selling firearms already has to run background checks, even at gun shows? Are you aware that people who make a portion of their living off firearms sales but who do not have an FFL are already breaking the law and are routinely prosecuted? Are you also aware that even with this new law I could set up a booth at a gun show and sell firearms without conducting background checks?

The new law is incredibly weak and vague. The private sell loophole (AKA gun show loophole) has not been closed. This was a dog and pony show and for some reason you see it as a win.
 
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