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Muslims, Political Correctness, and the Juan Williams saga

I disagree. I listen to NPR and am still a Juan Williams fan. But I had no problem with the firing.

This. I've only read what Hopper wrote and am simply imagining what Williams said based on what Hopper's alluded to. And to me, it sounds fine. Malcolm Gladwell wrote an interesting piece about such an issue. Not on the firing. But essentially on our prejudices.
 
Well Hopper, do you believe that NPR was under some sort of an affirmative obligation to continue to employ and use Mr. Williams regardless of their feelings about what he would bring to his broadcasts given his public statements?

I do not believe that the "feelings" of NPR editors are relevant. The question is should he have been fired for the reasons they said he was, i.e., because he was a bigot and disclosed a subjective reaction he has.

To me, the question is not "do they feel like he's a bigot." The question would be, has he said anything that could REASONABLY be interpreted as announcing his bigotry?
 
Here's the Gladwell piece.

https://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

It's on profiling. In short, let's profile all the arabs isn't the best idea. Not only can I see why Williams comments were offensive but ****ing stupid and thus his firing was just imo. Although if I'm being honest, I haven't even listened to any of what Williams's said so I'm just as stupid really, but I thought Hopper painted a fairly obvious stroke and ran with it.

In any case, the Gladwell piece is good food for thought.
 
Kicky, the wiki site says NPR has over 27 million listener a week, over a 100 million a month, and over a billion a year.

Your omsbudman says "Last year, 378 listeners emailed me complaints and frustrations about things Williams said on Fox. The listener themes are similar: Williams "dishonors NPR." He's an "embarrassment to NPR." "NPR should sever their relationship with him."

And you talk about "baggage?" What "dishonors" NPR? What "embarrasses" NPR in the eyes of 378 out of tens of millions of listeners? Does it even matter? My question is about what is right, what is fair, and what is reasonable, not about who's prejudices should be given priority.



Your omsbudman also says: "[NPR is] in a bind because Williams is no longer a staff employee but an independent contractor. As a contract news analyst, NPR doesn't exercise control over what Williams says outside of NPR."

And you're talking about "opting" for someone else? Sounds like they're breakin a contract here.

But those issues are irrelevant to my question in any event. I asked if NPR did the "right" thing. You, and other NPR apologists here, want to treat it as though the question is "do they have the right" to terminate Williams. This is the type of answer I always git from subscribers to the "might makes right" brand of philiosophical persuasion, but it aint the question.


My ultimate question goes beyond that narrow context, but that's a starting point.

It amazes me how comfortable and complacent some people are about taking away the livelihood of someone who says something they don't agree with (or want to deny that they agree with).
 
You love chomsky, doncha, Kicky?

I'm pretty sure I've never expressed a strongly positive opinion of Chomsky directly. I certainly don't own any of his books or anything. I would say that based on what I've seen of him (usually in documentaries) he's the most easily caricatured "ivory tower" guy I can think of.

You agree with his assessment? "Parameters of debate are conciously curtailed?" "The network feels the need to consider what kind of dissenting opinions are acceptable?"

I do disagree with that assessment. It's a common argument among those who love to frame NPR as excessively liberal that they do not have certain types of guests on. These claims are almost always verifiably inaccurate. Bill O'Reilly once claimed that NPR never had pro-life guests or global warming skeptics on their network. In actuality in the year that O'Reilly made the claim NPR had over 100 of each.

It is possible that they don't let true crackpots on and this might constitute "considering what kind of dissenting opinions are acceptable." I can't guarantee they'd let David Icke on the network to express his belief that world leaders are reptilian aliens. Then again, silencing point of views in that spectra is hardly my greatest concern about news content.

"Allegations of elitism and the status quo

A 2004 FAIR study concluded that "NPR’s guestlist shows the radio service relies on the same elite and influential sources that dominate mainstream commercial news, and falls short of reflecting the diversity of the American public."[36]

That's probably true. Then again, I don't consider it a weakness of the program that they prefer to get people with known and obvious qualifications for their programs instead of relying upon laypeople. If I wanted to know what my neighbor thinks I could just ask him.

Noam Chomsky has criticized NPR as being biased toward ideological power and the status quo. He alleges that the parameters of debate on a given topic are very consciously curtailed. He says that since the network maintains studios in ideological centers of opinion such as Washington, the network feels the necessity to carefully consider what kinds of dissenting opinion are acceptable. Thus, political pragmatism, perhaps induced by fear of offending public officials who control some of the NPR's funding (via CPB), often determines what views are suitable for broadcast, meaning that opinions critical of the structures of national-interest-based foreign policy, capitalism, and government bureaucracies (entailed by so-called "radical" or "activist" politics) usually do not make it to air."

Given the low level of funding CPB directly gives NPR this strikes me as a bit paranoid.
 
So National Public Radio personalities should be profiled on their activities outside of work and fired for them?

Also, what is Arab garb? I'm aware of Islam's religious clothing, but didn't know there is an Arab garb. Is it more Persian? I could be wrong, but isn't Muslim garb is more prevalent in Persian heritage countries. Wouldn't that make it Persian garb?
 
Mebbe you aint heard, eh, Frank? Anyone who loudly demands "tolerance" is, ipso facto, utterly incapable of bein intolerant.
 
LOL It was a good conversation until Hopper devolved into pseudo-ebonics. That last post crammed more words in kicky's mouth than he typed in the whole thread so far. If all Aint wants is a fight, I guess aint is always going to get it, no matter what he has to do to start it - especially if it's against his arch-nemesis kicky.

The point of having more complaints than others in the organization, in general, is valid regardless of the number of patrons or customers that make up the "customer population", and one would expect that would hold true for NPR as well. I worked for amazon.com, and we were concerned about the 0.175% of shipments that we got back as complaints. And if you, as a worker, made up a larger percentage of that 0.175% of errors, you were coached/retrained/disciplined accordingly, regardless of the hundreds of thousands of customers that did not complain. If I had an employee who accounted for even 5% of the entirety of that 0.175% of wrong shipments, and he didn't improve his performance, he would be let go. In the end the business decision, while likely not entirely based on complaints, had to include them as a factor, or the business manager was not doing his job to provide a product the customers wanted. Hopefully they included positive comments in the decision as well, to be fair and balanced, but it is radio and NPR to boot, so who knows.

[wow big delay in clicking post and having it post...edited after reading more in between]

For the record, I never like the idea of someone losing a job, almost for any reason besides obvious issues (drugs, theft/embezzling, violence in the workplace, etc.). But it is the job of business to put out there a product they feel is what their customers want to see, as well as taking care of shareholders/stakeholders.

I am finding this issue interesting to read here as i haven't looked into this particular case too closely yet, but one thing to consider is that public personalities and the media seem to always operate under different rules from everyone else, especially as far as the "business decision" goes. Also, look where Imus is now after his flap. I have no doubts that there will be no issues with Williams getting on somewhere else. Whether it was right or wrong that he got canned, well I am of the opinion that is up to NPR to decide. I make those kinds of decisions every day regarding my employees and the employees in my building, and I stand by those decisions but I can acknowledge it would not be fun to have them put under a public microscope.
 
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Mebbe you aint heard, eh, Frank? Anyone who loudly demands "tolerance" is, ipso facto, utterly incapable of bein intolerant.

why do you post these threads in a discussion format when you already have a conclusion decided and plan to do nothing but shovel this type of prepared **** over people who attempt to rope you into a rational debate

why not post this thread as "Hopper's Timely Rant about the Juan Williams Dismissal"

i am being entirely genuine. why do you do this
 
Your omsbudman

I think you mean NPR's ombudsman. I don't employ anybody.

And you talk about "baggage?" What "dishonors" NPR? What "embarrasses" NPR in the eyes of 378 out of tens of millions of listeners? Does it even matter? My question is about what is right, what is fair, and what is reasonable, not about who's prejudices should be given priority.

If NPR editors do not desire Mr. Williams services is it right, fair, or reasonable to expect them to continue to employ him?



Your omsbudman also says: "[NPR is] in a bind because Williams is no longer a staff employee but an independent contractor. As a contract news analyst, NPR doesn't exercise control over what Williams says outside of NPR."

And you're talking about "opting" for someone else? Sounds like they're breakin a contract here.

Actually, his independent contractor status likely operated to both parties benefit here. It allowed Mr. Williams to make non-NPR appearances without NPR's consent, and it gave NPR fewer legal hurdles to dismiss him.

But those issues are irrelevant to my question in any event. I asked if NPR did the "right" thing. You, and other NPR apologists here, want to treat it as though the question is "do they have the right" to terminate Williams. This is the type of answer I always git from subscribers to the "might makes right" brand of philiosophical persuasion, but it aint the question.

I don't think there is an objective "right" answer to the dilemmas NPR found itself in. I think the ombudsman framed it as a type of balancing test and it seems that balancing test eventually went against keeping him. I doubt it was even a unaninmous decision inside NPR as to whether or not it was a necessary action.

It amazes me how comfortable and complacent some people are about taking away the livelihood of someone who says something they don't agree with (or want to deny that they agree with).

Obviously Mr. Williams landed on his feet. Even if Fox News had not immediately hired him I doubt he would have been destitute.
 
why do you post these threads in a discussion format when you already have a conclusion decided and plan to do nothing but shovel this type of prepared **** over people who attempt to rope you into a rational debate

why not post this thread as "Hopper's Timely Rant about the Juan Williams Dismissal"

i am being entirely genuine. why do you do this


Discussion? What discussion? I ax Vinny simple questions intended to git elucidation and get no response. Others come in and agree with Vinny while admitting they don't even know this issue and by citing irrelevant articles that don't even support the claims made about them. Still others want to discuss the "rights" of NPR editors, while completely skirting the issue. They aint no discussion.
 
Williams gets derogatorily called a "happy negro" by CNN. A "bigot" by NPR. A "porch monkey" by some radio talk show guy. His psychological stability is called into question by NPR. Why? Because they don't agree with what he says?

Or simply because he IS a psychologically disturbed, bigotted porch monkey, and they are astute enough to realize it?

Why is it that certain honest opinions or experiences can't even be uttered without ad hominem condemnation by those purportedly espousing tolerance and purportedly seeking "mutual understanding?"
 
why do you post these threads in a discussion format when you already have a conclusion decided and plan to do nothing but shovel this type of prepared **** over people who attempt to rope you into a rational debate

why not post this thread as "Hopper's Timely Rant about the Juan Williams Dismissal"

i am being entirely genuine. why do you do this

Slip n slide records, UH finna take it to da house!
 
The point of having more complaints than others in the organization, in general, is valid regardless of the number of patrons or customers that make up the "customer population", and one would expect that would hold true for NPR as well.


The question is, complaint about what? Is "He completely screwed up my order" the same as "I don't like the color of his eyes?"


Again, I ax: What "dishonors" NPR? What "embarrasses" NPR? Not subscribing to the complainer's ideology, that it?

Or is it all, as was suggested by the omsbudman himself, a "guilty by association" thing where, because a listener hates Fox, they hate Williams?

Is NPR there to cater to the complaints of anti-fox listeners?

Get real.
 
why do you post these threads in a discussion format when you already have a conclusion decided and plan to do nothing but shovel this type of prepared **** over people who attempt to rope you into a rational debate

why not post this thread as "Hopper's Timely Rant about the Juan Williams Dismissal"

i am being entirely genuine. why do you do this

Discussion? What discussion? I ax Vinny simple questions intended to git elucidation and get no response. Others come in and agree with Vinny while admitting they don't even know this issue and by citing irrelevant articles that don't even support the claims made about them. Still others want to discuss the "rights" of NPR editors, while completely skirting the issue. They aint no discussion.

[Hoping the multi-quote thing works. =]

There was discussion, even with new and applicable content. The issue is far more complex than Hopper has outlined, it isn't so black and white as aint wants to make it out to be. But discussion of the other possible motives and reasoning and ideas behind the issue is not what ainthopper wants. He wants to elicit an emotional response and will keep pushing till he gets it. That, my friends, is the very definition of trolling, and typically aint's standard M.O.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

That said, I still found it interesting in this particular thread due to the very complexity of the issue. But I think it says something about aint that he so casually wishes to boil it down to the simplest terms rather than being willing to discuss the various implications of the matter and recognize that other differing viewpoints may have validity, regardless of whether they support his core opinion on the matter. Eh?

---------------
[Dialectized for fun...]

Dere wuz discussion, even wid new and applicable content. Man! De issue be far mo'e complex dan Hoppuh' gots outlined, it ain't so's black and honky as aint wantsa make it out t'be. But discussion uh de oda' possible motives and reasonin' and ideas behind da damn issue be not whut aindoppuh' wants's. He wantsa elicit an emoshunal response and gots'ta keep pushin' till he digs it. Man! Dat, mah' homeys, be de real definishun uh trollin', and typically aint's standard M.O. http, dig dis://en. 'S coo', bro.wikipedia. WORD!o'g/wiki/Troll_(Internet) "In Internet slang, some troll be some sucka who posts inflammato'y, 'estraneous, o' off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion fo'um, chat room, o' blog, wid de primary intent uh provokin' oda' users into some desired emoshunal response[1] o' uh oderwise disruptin' no'mal on-topic discussion. 'S coo', bro." Dat said, ah' still found it interestin' in dis particular dread due t'de real complexity uh de issue. But ah' dink it says sump'n about aint dat he so's casually wishes t'boil it waaay down t'de simplest terms rada' dan bein' willin' t'discuss de various implicashuns uh de matta' and recognize dat oda' differin' viewpoints may gots validity, regardless uh wheda' dey suppo't his co'e opinion on de matter. Ah be baaad... Eh?
 
I get what you're saying LG98, but let's alter the circumstances and see if you stick to your guns.

Say an NPR host is gay and likes to hop bars dressed in flamboyant costume and is often caught "acting belligerently" outside of clubs. A bunch of homophobes complain that NPR hosts shouldn't be "party animals" and are reflecting poorly on the programming. Do you agree with firing this hypothetical individual strictly for what he does away from work?
 
Williams gets derogatorily called a "happy negro" by CNN.

CNN didn't say that. Boyce Watkins, who is not employed by CNN, said that.

A "bigot" by NPR.

Really? Link please from any NPR employee in their official capacity calling Juan Williams a bigot. You've asserted this several times with no backing. I'm pretty sure the statement was along the lines of Williams statements didn't comport with NPR's editorial and journalistic practices.

Of course, your reputation on the issue of accurate quotes speaks for itself.

BTW: NPR's ombudsman also wrote an article about Juan Williams dismissal.

https://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2010/10/21/130713285/npr-terminates-contract-with-juan-williams

Juan Williams once again got himself into trouble with NPR for comments he made at his other job, at Fox News. And NPR's reaction has unleashed an unprecedented firestorm of criticism directed not at Williams – but at NPR.

NPR fired Williams Wednesday night after 10 years with the network for comments he made about Muslims on Fox News.

Thursday was a day like none I’ve experienced since coming to NPR in October 2007. Office phone lines rang non-stop like an alarm bell with no off button. We’ve received more than 8,000 emails, a record with nothing a close second.

NPR’s initial story garnered more than 6,800 comments, many supporting Williams and others asking why it took so long to fire him. Here's Thursday's story.

At noon, the deluge of email crashed NPR’s “Contact Us” form on the web site.

The overwhelming majority are angry, furious, outraged. They want NPR to hire him back immediately. If NPR doesn't, they want all public funding of public radio to stop. They promise to never donate again. They are as mad as hell, and want everyone to know it. It was daunting to answer the phone and hear so much unrestrained anger.


The latest, and final, episode involving Williams took place Monday on Fox's The O'Reilly Factor. He and host Bill O'Reilly discussed whether America had a "Muslim dilemma."

In response to a provocative question from O'Reilly about Muslims, Williams said:

“I mean, look, Bill, I’m not a bigot. You know the kind of books I’ve written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.”

Later in that segment, Williams did challenge O'Reilly's apparent contention that every Muslim on the planet is an extremist bent on attacking America.

It took a day for Williams' remarks to bleed into the blogosphere. But then, it was like opening a fire hydrant. Hundreds wrote or called demanding that NPR fire Williams or at least discipline him.

Many have been troubled over the years by the dual role that Williams has played: balanced news analyst on NPR; more opinionated pundit on Fox.

"On the Radio, Williams is somewhat of a thoughtful though superficial moderate while on FOX he shows his politically correct submissive Pro Fox bigotry for a few dollars more," wrote Mohamed Khodr, a doctor from Winchester, VA, who was among scores who contacted me Wednesday.

"NPR must and should take a stand against this bigotry and tell Williams' he must choose NPR's code of ethics or be let go to join the racist bigoted fearmongerers of FOX,” continued Khodr. “NPR can't have it both ways."

NPR's management acted. In a statement released at 12:27 a.m. Thursday, NPR said Williams' remarks “were inconsistent with our editorial standards and practices, and undermined his credibility as a news analyst with NPR.”

This was far from an isolated incident.

Williams’ appearances on Fox News, especially O’Reilly’s show, have caused heartburn repeatedly for NPR over the last few years. Management said he’s been warned several times that O’Reilly is a professional provocateur and to be careful.

In early 2009, Williams said on O'Reilly of Michelle Obama: "She's got this Stokely Carmichael-in-a-designer-dress thing going. If she starts talking . . . her instinct is to start with this blame America, you know, I'm the victim. If that stuff starts to coming out, people will go bananas and she'll go from being the new Jackie O. to being something of an albatross."

After other inflammatory comments on Fox, in April 2008 NPR changed Williams' role from news correspondent (a reporting job) to news analyst. In this contract position, he was expected to report, think quickly and give his own analysis – while carefully choosing his words on any given subject.

One reason he was fired, according to Vivian Schiller, NPR’s CEO, is that the company felt he wasn’t performing the role of a news analyst:

“News analysts may not take personal public positions on controversial issues; doing so undermines their credibility as analysts, and that’s what’s happened in this situation,” said Schiller in an email to NPR member stations, some of which are upset about Williams' firing.

“As you all well know," she continued, "we offer views of all kinds on your air every day, but those views are expressed by those we interview – not our reporters and analysts.”

In 2008, I received 378 emails complaining about remarks Williams made on Fox – but I heard very little about his comments on NPR. My February 2009 blog post on the Stokely Carmichael incident drew 216 comments – many asking why NPR put up with Williams' dual role.

In fact, since I became Ombudsman in October 2007, no other NPR employee has generated as much controversy as Williams.

That said, Williams provided a valuable voice on NPR. His long experience as a journalist and background as an authority on the Civil Rights movement enabled him to offer insights that often enriched the network's reporting.

Ultimately, however, it seems management felt he had become more of a liability than an asset. Unfortunately, I agree.

It can’t be overlooked that this episode is occurring in a toxic political environment where people are quick to take sides and look for hidden motives. I fear some will look for racial motivations in NPR's decision to fire Williams, who is African-American and one of the few black male NPR voices.

It's not about race. It's also not about free speech, as some have charged. Nor is it about an alleged attempt by NPR to stifle conservative views. NPR offers a broad range of viewpoints on its radio shows and web site.

Instead, this latest incident with Williams centers around a collision of values: NPR's values emphasizing fact-based, objective journalism versus the tendency in some parts of the news media, notably Fox News, to promote only one side of the ideological spectrum.

The issue also is whether someone on NPR's payroll should be allowed to say something in one venue that NPR would not allow on its air. NPR’s ethics code says they cannot.

Many emails asked for an explanation of how these latest comments were specifically outside NPR's rules and expectations – especially since Williams was being honest about his prejudices and fears.

(Williams also said, on a Fox News segment that aired Thursday, that he asked for, but was not given, a specific explanation of how his remarks crossed the line.)

NPR, like any mainstream news outlet, expects its journalists to be thoughtful and measured in everything they say. What Williams said was deeply offensive to Muslims and inflamed, rather than contributing positively, to an important debate about the role of Muslims in America.

Williams was doing the kind of stereotyping in a public platform that is dangerous to a democracy. It puts people in categories, as types – not as individuals with much in common despite their differences.

I can only imagine how Williams, who has chronicled and championed the Civil Rights movement, would have reacted if another prominent journalist had said:

"But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see an African American male in Dashiki with a big Afro, I get worried. I get nervous."

In an appearance on Fox News today, Williams defended his controversial remarks, saying he simply had intended to convey his "honest experience" of anxiety. He also said he was told his contract was terminated without an opportunity to come into NPR and discuss the firing.

If he is correct, that’s too bad. I think NPR owed him a chance to explain himself.

I’m not privy to the why this announcement was so hastily made. NPR could have waited until his contract ran out, or possibly suspended him pending a review. Either way, a more deliberative approach might have enabled NPR to avoid what has turned into a public relations nightmare.

Even though NPR handled this situation badly, the fact remains that NPR must uphold its journalistic standards, which, after all, provide the basis that earned public radio's reputation for quality.

A fairly reasonable position.
 
Really? Link please from any NPR employee in their official capacity calling Juan Williams a bigot. You've asserted this several times with no backing. I'm pretty sure the statement was along the lines of Williams statements didn't comport with NPR's editorial and journalistic practices.

Again? I specifcially asked you if you watched the videos I posted. You didn't answer. Let me ask again. Did you?
 
I get what you're saying LG98, but let's alter the circumstances and see if you stick to your guns.

Say an NPR host is gay and likes to hop bars dressed in flamboyant costume and is often caught "acting belligerently" outside of clubs. A bunch of homophobes complain that NPR hosts shouldn't be "party animals" and are reflecting poorly on the programming. Do you agree with firing this hypothetical individual strictly for what he does away from work?

That's not really the same situation though. Juan Williams activities "outside of work" were in the same sphere as his work activities. He was being a news commentator on NPR and also on Fox News. That's why NPR had to ask Fox not to identify him as an NPR employee on their programs in the first place: there was a significant risk of confusion as to which "hat" he was wearing.

Your hypo is about an NPR host "behaving badly" in activities that are in a different sphere. No one could reasonably confuse going to nightclubs as being part of the official duties of an NPR host.

I understand what you're doing, but the hypo isn't the slam dunk you think it is because you've changed too many variables.
 
Again? I specifcially asked you if you watched the videos I posted. You didn't answer. Let me ask again. Did you?

I watched the first one and some of the third one. But I can't find any text statements saying "NPR calls Williams a bigot" and I'm pretty sure those would be out there and findable if they existed.

Direct me to the part that you think is a statememt from NPR saying Williams is a bigot. I saw Williams give a summary of a conversation he had with someone at NPR in which she said he made a "bigoted statement."

Is that what you mean?

A) That's not calling him a bigot personally.
B) He's not representing it as a quote, so why are you?

Or is there some other part of your videos you're referring to?
 
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