Nets lock down stadium

[Al-O-Meter]

Are you claiming you would know for a fact what your reaction would be?

Oh yes. No doubt. I'd think it was the stupidest thing they could have done. Not only did it ruin a season they'll never get back, but it also did the exact opposite for the cause they were allegedly trying to help. Any time anyone says" gender is a social construct" or "men and women are equal", all anyone would have to respond is "sure, just ask the 2022 Jazz". People would make endless numbers of YouTube videos of WNBA players getting torched by end-of-the-bench NBA players. I do not think even the world champion WNBA team in a given season could beat an elite high school boys basketball team like IMG or Montverde. If the Jazz did that, not only would they lose badly to any NBA team, but I'd put money on the WNBA Jazz being blown out by Wasatch Academy.

I'd love it if some NBA team did that, but there is no doubt how I'd feel about the Jazz making a joke of themselves.

 

[One Brow]

I'd love it if some NBA team did that, ...

There are so many layers of misconceptions, false statements, self-defeating presumptions,, and hate-fueled jingo behind that post that I refuse to clutter up the message board and air it all out. If you really do not understand why, and want to have me explain why, you can PM me and I will do so privately. Otherwise, kindly take all that hate and repression and squeeze it up your bung hole.

 

[gandalfe]

Just for fun, let's say I'm correct. You are the owner of the Nets. You have a crystal ball that lets you see that without Kyrie Irving the Nets will finish .500 and out of the playoffs but with Kyrie Irving they finish as the #2 seed.

The vaccine requirement is not in Kyrie Irving's contract. He's agreed to be tested every 3 days, he's young, extremely cardiovascularly healthy, and you know Regeneron is highly effective when you catch infections early. Given his health, the level of medical care available to him, and because breakthrough infections are a thing he's not at any higher risk to cause an outbreak than anyone else on the team. This is a power move, to force Kyrie Irving to accept a condition not in his contract simply as an outward show that you are on "team vaccinate".

As the owner of the Nets with your crystal ball, do you voluntarily cause your team to miss the playoffs to virtue signal?

So, what you're saying is that the owner of the Nets should allow Kyrie, who has repeatedly shown he'll take time off whenever he feels like it, to be guaranteed over half the year off, but not the rest of the team?

The owner of the Nets does not determine what the policies of the city are - especially not a city like New York. The 43 games off are non-negotiable. The question is do you allow him to mess with your chemistry for the other 39 games?

 

[gandalfe]

Would it matter if the employer was a union shop, you did have a collective bargaining agreement in force that did not include any provision for disclosing your medical history, and the employer unilaterally changed the deal without any agreement from the union?

So, should the employer violate city ordinances? Because of the union contract?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So, should the employer violate city ordinances? Because of the union contract?

That is an excellent point. No, I'd probably do exactly what the Nets are doing. As both the team owner and the building owner, the city ordinances have forced their hand.

 

[fishonjazz]

Just so that I'm clear in your two statements, you are saying that if you ran the Nets and the NBA, you would not be imposing any vaccine mandates.

If you were an employee at a company that issued a vaccine requirement and provide proof of vaccination, you would do so. Would it matter if the employer was a union shop, you did have a collective bargaining agreement in force that did not include any provision for disclosing your medical history, and the employer unilaterally changed the deal without any agreement from the union?

Correct to your first question and I don't know what you are asking in your second response but I would get vaccinated cause I'm not an idiot who thinks the earth is flat.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I don't know what you are asking in your second response but I would get vaccinated cause I'm not an idiot who thinks the earth is flat.

I'm not asking about your getting vaccinated. I'm asking about your employer having the power to demand you produce and surrender personal information when you had a contract with that employer that did not include any such privilege for the employer.

I'm not asking how you feel about the vaccine. I too am extremely pro-vaccine and will soon be getting my booster. I'm more interested in how you view the power of a contract, when you are party to that contract, and the other party unilaterally seizes additional privileges at the expense of your privileges that you did not agree to in the contract.

 

[Gameface]

I'm not asking about your getting vaccinated. I'm asking about your employer having the power to demand you produce and surrender personal information when you had a contract with that employer that did not include any such privilege for the employer.

I'm not asking how you feel about the vaccine. I too am extremely pro-vaccine and will soon be getting my booster. I'm more interested in how you view the power of a contract, when you are party to that contract, and the other party unilaterally seizes additional privileges at the expense of your privileges that you did not agree to in the contract.

How do you know the contract didn't include stipulations about following the law, abiding by league health and safety standards or something like that? I mean if the mandate is in violation of his contract he should push that angle... and he's not, so?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

if the mandate is in violation of his contract he should push that angle... and he's not, so?

If the mandate wasn't a violation of his contract then the Nets wouldn't be paying him tens of millions of dollars to do nothing. The mandate isn't contractually enforceable. Even when Irving doesn't comply, he isn't breaking the terms of the contract and so the Nets are compelled to pay him. If the Nets used noncompliance with the vaccine mandate as their reason to breach his contract by not paying him the money they agreed to pay, I doubt it would be 24 hours before lawyers sprang into action.

If you were a unionized factory worker and the factory owner told you that if you don't provide proof of vaccination then you have to stay at home while the factory continues to pay your full wage for staying home, I doubt that you'd fight too hard to get back in to the factory.

 

[Gameface]

If the mandate wasn't a violation of his contract then the Nets wouldn't be paying him tens of millions of dollars to do nothing. The mandate isn't contractually enforceable. Even when Irving doesn't comply, he isn't breaking the terms of the contract and so the Nets are compelled to pay him. If the Nets used noncompliance with the vaccine mandate as their reason to breach his contract by not paying him the money they agreed to pay, I doubt it would be 24 hours before lawyers sprang into action.

If you were a unionized factory worker and the factory owner told you that if you don't provide proof of vaccination then you have to stay at home while the factory continues to pay your full wage for staying home, I doubt that you'd fight too hard to get back in to the factory.

So his contract isn't being violated then... He isn't being forced to get a vaccine, he just can't play unless he does. So basically there is no problem.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So his contract isn't being violated then... He isn't being forced to get a vaccine, he just can't play unless he does. So basically there is no problem.

For Kyrie Irving there is no problem but this tread isn't about Kyrie Irving being unhappy. Barclays Center wasn't locked down because Kyrie Irving was expressing his unhappiness. The #2 seed in the East last season is now a .400 team. A good number of fans are attributing that fall from top-tier to cellar-dweller on the vaccine mandates. If they had to lock down the arena, there basically is a problem.

 

[Gameface]

For Kyrie Irving there is no problem but this tread isn't about Kyrie Irving being unhappy. Barclays Center wasn't locked down because Kyrie Irving was expressing his unhappiness. The #2 seed in the East last season is now a .400 team. A good number of fans are attributing that fall from top-tier to cellar-dweller on the vaccine mandates. If they had to lock down the arena, there basically is a problem.

Yeah, there is a problem. It's a problem that was fully exposed on Jan. 6th. We have a large chunk of angry idiots in this country that want things their way or else they are willing to tear the whole place down.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

We have a large chunk of angry idiots in this country that want things their way or else they are willing to tear the whole place down.

Yes, but what do you do with those people. There is a similar situation going on in Chicago with the police union. Chicago did not enter negations with the union when they imposed a vaccine mandate. The deadline for vaccination has come and gone. A third of the entire police force has refused to provide proof of vaccination. Roughly 3,500 officers may be vaccinated or maybe not but aren't uploading proof either way.

As someone who has been a vocal supporter of vaccine mandates, what would you do if you were the mayor of Chicago? The police are already short staffed because they can't find enough people to apply. Murders and crime rates in Chicago are skyrocketing. Sheriffs in neighboring counties have gone on record saying they are refusing to send any of their officers to help in Chicago. Ron DeSantis in Florida has told the police union in Chicago that he will pay an immediate $5,000 bonus to any Chicago PD officer who relocates to Florida to become a police officer there. If the Chicago officers are fired or suspended without pay, likely a large number would take DeSantis up on the offer and be permanently gone.

So far, the Chicago mayor has blinked. They've suspended about 2 dozen of the most vocal officers but the remaining 3,500 are still there on the force. If you were the mayor with your convictions on the goodness of vaccine mandates, would you immediately fire 1/3rd of the police, knowing that people you represent will die as the crime statistics spike up, businesses will leave, and you will likely be blamed for all of it? Is that a price you are willing to pay to unilaterally impose a vaccine mandate on a unionized workforce?

 

[Gameface]

Yes, but what do you do with those people. There is a similar situation going on in Chicago with the police union. Chicago did not enter negations with the union when they imposed a vaccine mandate. The deadline for vaccination has come and gone. A third of the entire police force has refused to provide proof of vaccination. Roughly 3,500 officers may be vaccinated or maybe not but aren't uploading proof either way.

As someone who has been a vocal supporter of vaccine mandates, what would you do if you were the mayor of Chicago? The police are already short staffed because they can't find enough people to apply. Murders and crime rates in Chicago are skyrocketing. Sheriffs in neighboring counties have gone on record saying they are refusing to send any of their officers to help in Chicago. Ron DeSantis in Florida has told the police union in Chicago that he will pay an immediate $5,000 bonus to any Chicago PD officer who relocates to Florida to become a police officer there. If the Chicago officers are fired or suspended without pay, likely a large number would take DeSantis up on the offer and be permanently gone.

So far, the Chicago mayor has blinked. They've suspended about 2 dozen of the most vocal officers but the remaining 3,500 are still there on the force. If you were the mayor with your convictions on the goodness of vaccine mandates, would you immediately fire 1/3rd of the police, knowing that people you represent will die as the crime statistics spike up, businesses will leave, and you will likely be blamed for all of it? Is that a price you are willing to pay to unilaterally impose a vaccine mandate on a unionized workforce?

My understanding is that in the Chicago situation they have a testing option.

Yes, I would call their bluff. Get vaccinated or follow the testing guidelines or don't come to work because you don't work here anymore.

They don't like that mayor because she came in on a police reform platform. They are using this issue to weaken her and exert their power. I would absolutely call their bluff and I would be completely willing to lose 1/3 of the police force. That would be the 1/3 that don't want police reforms because they want to continue to be the kind of cops that reforms are intended to change. I'd deal with the fallout and deal with the medium term problems it would cause and I would look forward to a better police force.

 

[One Brow]

Murders and crime rates in Chicago are skyrocketing.

That true even in places that have increased the size of the police force. Losing the officers will mean less of an ability to respond after crimes more than prevent crimes.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

That true even in places that have increased the size of the police force.

Please provide current examples.

When You Add More Police To A City, What Happens?

A new study looks at the effects of growing police forces on racial inequality.

www.npr.org

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Hire More Cops

The death of George Floyd while in the custody of Minneapolis police has ignited calls to defund police forces across the country. While reforms targeted at punishing and removing bad cops, such as elimination of qualified immunity in civil cases and weakening of police union protections, may be...

www.city-journal.org

https://www.princeton.edu/~smello/papers/cops.pdf

 

[One Brow]

Please provide current examples.

When You Add More Police To A City, What Happens?

A new study looks at the effects of growing police forces on racial inequality.

www.npr.org

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Hire More Cops

The death of George Floyd while in the custody of Minneapolis police has ignited calls to defund police forces across the country. While reforms targeted at punishing and removing bad cops, such as elimination of qualified immunity in civil cases and weakening of police union protections, may be...

www.city-journal.org

https://www.princeton.edu/~smello/papers/cops.pdf

Why should I, when you already have? Did you read past the headlines of your own articles?
From the NPR piece:

More Police May Leave Some Cities Worse Off
The economists also find troubling evidence that suggests cities with the largest populations of Black people — like many of those in the South and Midwest — don't see the same policing benefits as the average cities in their study. Adding additional police officers in these cities doesn't seem to lower the homicide rate. Meanwhile, more police officers in these cities seems to result in even more arrests of Black people for low-level crimes. The authors believe it supports a narrative that "Black communities are simultaneously over and under-policed." The economists don't have a solid explanation for why bigger police forces appear to lead to worse outcomes in these cities, and they plan to investigate these findings more deeply in future research.

The Vox piece is based on the Mello paper, which looks at cities above a threshold for aid and compares them to cities below the threshold for aid, vastly different groups. I didn't read too far into City Journal, as an publication that gives time to Christopher Rufo is not worth reading.

Still, since you asked:

Killings spiked in the US and Republicans blame calls to ‘defund the police.’ But they are also rising in cities that increased spending on cops.

“SKYROCKETING MURDER RATES,” claimed the National Fraternal Order of Police. “An explosion of violent crime,” said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. “Democrat-ru…

www.chicagotribune.com

This lists Houston, Nashville, Tulsa, and Fresno as examples. Also, they had one other point:

Meanwhile, other types of crime are down, according to preliminary statistics and researchers who say crime initially dropped around the world after the pandemic began. While cities are reporting jumps in their homicide rate, there’s been no similar increase in other crimes, like burglaries, robberies or drug offenses.

That’s not what you’d expect if calls to defund the police were leading to a rash of crime, Abrams said. “Any theory explaining the rise in homicides would also have to explain why we haven’t seen a spike in other kinds of crimes,” he said.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Why should I, when you already have? Did you read past the headlines of your own articles?

Yes I do read past the headlines. Statistically men are on-average stronger than women. That doesn't mean that every man is stronger than every woman. Even if you can find the odd exception, "adding a new police officer to a city prevents between 0.06 and 0.1 homicides". Even more, "Williams and his coauthors find that, in the average city, larger police forces result in Black lives saved at about twice the rate of white lives saved" according to the NPR piece.

Also, not a single one of your examples was shown to have larger police forces, only either an increased budget or a Republican mayor.

Houston

HPD chief says shortage of officers won't 'correct itself overnight'

HPD chief responds to 13 Investigates analysis showing 700 crimes reported at a south Houston apartment in the last 15 months and the shortage of officers.

abc13.com

Nashville

News

News

www.wsmv.com

Tulsa

Editorial: Addressing police shortage now to prevent crisis levels

Shortages of officers are due to several factors. The issue is not solely about pay, although we can't discount that issue, the editorial states.

tulsaworld.com

Fresno

Fresno cops: Staffing shortages, crime wave leave us "drowning"

"This rise in crime only further burdens patrol, creating a cycle that snowballs on itself," Fresno Police Officers Association president Brandon Wiemiller said.

sjvsun.com

Knowing how difficult is has been for big cities to find police officers is why I disagree with GameFace's idea of cutting 1/3rd of the Chicago PD. It would take more than a decade to replace that and whatever you replaced those officers with would be worse because you're hiring from a position of desperation. That is probably why Lightfoot, who hates her PD, isn't proceeding as Mayor GameFace would in her stead.

 

[Gameface]

Yes I do read past the headlines. Statistically men are on-average stronger than women. That doesn't mean that every man is stronger than every woman. Even if you can find the odd exception, "adding a new police officer to a city prevents between 0.06 and 0.1 homicides". Even more, "Williams and his coauthors find that, in the average city, larger police forces result in Black lives saved at about twice the rate of white lives saved" according to the NPR piece.

Also, not a single one of your examples was shown to have larger police forces, only either an increased budget or a Republican mayor.

HPD chief says shortage of officers won't 'correct itself overnight'

HPD chief responds to 13 Investigates analysis showing 700 crimes reported at a south Houston apartment in the last 15 months and the shortage of officers.

abc13.com

News

News

www.wsmv.com

Editorial: Addressing police shortage now to prevent crisis levels

Shortages of officers are due to several factors. The issue is not solely about pay, although we can't discount that issue, the editorial states.

tulsaworld.com

Fresno cops: Staffing shortages, crime wave leave us "drowning"

"This rise in crime only further burdens patrol, creating a cycle that snowballs on itself," Fresno Police Officers Association president Brandon Wiemiller said.

sjvsun.com

Knowing how difficult is has been for big cities to find police officers is why I disagree with GameFace's idea of cutting 1/3rd of the Chicago PD. It would take more than a decade to replace that and whatever you replaced those officers with would be worse because you're hiring from a position of desperation. That is probably why Lightfoot, who hates her PD, isn't proceeding as Mayor GameFace would in her stead.

You would not be cutting the police force by 1/3. I absolutely grantee the majority of them would fold and either follow testing guidelines or provide their positive vaccination status. Sure Florida would give them a $5000 sign-on bonus. Meanwhile they'd have to want to relocate, their partner/family would have to be able and willing to relocate, they'd have to sell their house, etc., and they'd be between jobs for at least a few weeks. It isn't like people who live in Chicago are just going to hop over to Florida like it's nothing.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

You would not be cutting the police force by 1/3. I absolutely grantee the majority of them would fold and either follow testing guidelines or provide their positive vaccination status.

I don’t think they’d fold that quickly. Firstly, there is a testing option but it is mandated as twice per week and at the officer’s expense. It is not much of an option to spend half your salary on COVID testing.

It is also against the law in Illinois for police to go on strike. With as unhappy as they are with working conditions, they’d probably strike if they could. Cutting 1/3rd of the police force would be effectively giving them the power to strike. I do not think they’d roll over. Ultimately you could probably get most of the 3,500 to provide vaccine cards but you’d have to give some major concessions to get them to do so. There is a very good chance most of these officers already are vaccinated and are simply refusing to provide documentation in hopes the mayor will do exactly what you said that you’d do.