Never Trump

[colton]

Don't act like this discussion is about voting for the best candidate. This thread is about the dread and parsimony of the choices we'll be given on the ballot. You're looking at smaller parties now because of the reality (i.e. false-choice) that Democrats and Republicans have given you. The discussion is about voting in the present context (but it's fitting that your last post retreats to some high-minded spot).

Your hope in the system is still pinned to the authenticity of your (and others) actions vis-a-vis actual choice. That's too much belief in the system, and, given the compromised state of the status quo, too much belief in authentic, within-the-system action. Due to the fact that your own actions are cast in this light, and you feel as if you must feel good and just about your voting actions, I'm calling you too self-involved. It's my opinion that more cynicism would be healthy.

Well, thanks for the explanation. I still think that considering someone who doesn't want to vote for either of the two major parties (for whatever reason) to be self-involved is a pretty bizarre view.

 

[NAOS]

Well, thanks for the explanation. I still think that considering someone who doesn't want to vote for either of the two major parties (for whatever reason) to be self-involved is a pretty bizarre view.

you appear to have elite qualities at wriggling out of a discussion. . . . even when there's a written record of what's transpired here.

 

[colton]

you appear to have elite qualities at wriggling out of a discussion. . . . even when there's a written record of what's transpired here.

Not trying to wriggle out of anything. You said that I was being self-involved when I said I would vote for who I thought was the best candidate rather than voting for someone I dislike in order to prevent someone I dislike more from winning. That seems very odd to me. End of story.

The written record:

Voting for anyone but Trump will be the same as voting for Hillary, though.

I disagree with this assessment. In the grand scheme of things, a single vote is NEVER going to make the different in a presidential election. It's statistically impossible. So for me, on an individual basis, it's far more important to vote for someone in good conscience (so that I can live with myself) than to take the view that I need to vote for someone I really dislike in order to prevent someone I dislike more from winning.

that sounds a bit too self-involved for my tastes. Also, it doesn't alter Cappy's point one bit.

Self-involved would be thinking that my vote would actually be the deciding factor, no?

that would me MORE self-involved. That doesn't preclude my thoughts that your position is still too self-involved.

I still don't get it. Why is voting for someone that I think is the best candidate even if he/she doesn't have a reasonable shot to win make me self-involved? Please explain again.

Don't act like this discussion is about voting for the best candidate. This thread is about the dread and parsimony of the choices we'll be given on the ballot. You're looking at smaller parties now because of the reality (i.e. false-choice) that Democrats and Republicans have given you. The discussion is about voting in the present context (but it's fitting that your last post retreats to some high-minded spot).

Your hope in the system is still pinned to the authenticity of your (and others) actions vis-a-vis actual choice. That's too much belief in the system, and, given the compromised state of the status quo, too much belief in authentic, within-the-system action. Due to the fact that your own actions are cast in this light, and you feel as if you must feel good and just about your voting actions, I'm calling you too self-involved. It's my opinion that more cynicism would be healthy.

Well, thanks for the explanation. I still think that considering someone who doesn't want to vote for either of the two major parties (for whatever reason) to be self-involved is a pretty bizarre view.

 

[NAOS]

the record extends well beyond this thread. But, whatevs.

 

[Miggs]

the record extends well beyond this thread. But, whatevs.

Colton's a good dude. Just admit you were wrong here. God knows I am 70% of the time.

 

[NAOS]

As a life-long moderate Republican who will never vote for Donald Trump, nor Clinton/Sanders, I'm now considering my options. Barring a third party run by someone like Romney or Bloomberg, I'm thinking maybe Gary Johnson. Does anyone know much about him? Anyone else I should consider?

Why was this left out of Colton's recap? It's the O-freaking-P.

You feel spurned by the Grand Ol Party, and you're jussst turning some attention to Gary Johnson... and crowd-sourcing for opinion on JFC.

You wriggle, brough. Wrigglin'

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

I disagree with this assessment. In the grand scheme of things, a single vote is NEVER going to make the different in a presidential election. It's statistically impossible. So for me, on an individual basis, it's far more important to vote for someone in good conscience (so that I can live with myself) than to take the view that I need to vote for someone I really dislike in order to prevent someone I dislike more from winning.

You already know the counter-argument to this, but I'll play along. If a million people share this exact same view and all stay at home instead of voting because they believe their single vote doesn't matter, suddenly it's not quite so simple. I used to share this point of view, but after W beat Gore on a technicality, I just can't anymore. After all, if the presidency can be won in a close election by the guy with fewer votes, there's a good chance that the difference was a small amount of people who thought their single vote was statistically impossible of making a difference.

I reject the notion that voting for Hillary is voting for my country.

No offense, but you and Colton both sound to me like you're in a state of denial. Realistically, it will come down to either Trump or Hillary. Most people would view it as deciding between the lesser of two evils, and it really is that simple. Now if you're a member of either party and you decide to vote for Micky Mouse or <insert guaranteed loser here> as a write-in, you're essentially giving your vote to the greater evil. Same thing goes for people who decide to just stay home and avoid voting altogether. That's just the reality of the situation.

For me, I'd rather have Bernie, but if for some reason he decided to run independent after losing the Dem. nomination, I'm 100% voting for Hillary. Even if I considered it a remote possibility that Bernie could pull it off, it's not worth the risk of letting Not-Hillary somehow become president.

P.S. When Hillary wins, how awesome would it be for her to say in her victory speech, "Mr. Trump, you're fired!"?

 

[JazzGal]

I'm not advocating staying at home on election day. But part of why we are where we are is voting apathy, sure, but a lot is that people feel forced into voting within the two party system. If enough people decide to vote third party, it would make it more likely that someday there will be more viable choices.

Ultimately, everyone gets to decide how they vote and their reasons for that vote. There really isn't a right and wrong to it.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

BTW, in case anyone missed that, I am from this point forward, referring to Trump as Not-Hillary, as I truly believe that's the only reason he's getting the kind of support he is. He's not even a republican for God's sake, so for people to support him in this way, it really is more of an anti-Hillary vote than it is a vote for the man with clown hair.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

I'm not advocating staying at home on election day. But part of why we are where we are is voting apathy, sure, but a lot is that people feel forced into voting within the two party system. If enough people decide to vote third party, it would make it more likely that someday there will be more viable choices.

Ultimately, everyone gets to decide how they vote and their reasons for that vote. There really isn't a right and wrong to it.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

Fair post, and I hate the 2 party system. Unlike some others that hope for a 3rd party to emerge, I hope for the death of political parties altogether. Candidates should run as individuals who shouldn't be pressured on any single issue based on how a certain group of wealthy people want them to think. Kind of ironic, considering none of the candidates still breathing at this point really fit into the mold of their so-called parties.

Unfortunately, this is probably too idealistic to happen any time soon. Money is power, and I'm not sure we can hope for government not corrupted by the influence of wealth in our lifetime or even the that of our great, great, great, great grandchildren. Hopefully, human nature will take that kind of turn sooner rather than later.

 

[colton]

You already know the counter-argument to this, but I'll play along. If a million people share this exact same view and all stay at home instead of voting because they believe their single vote doesn't matter, suddenly it's not quite so simple.

I never said stay home. If a million people share this view and vote for a third party candidate, that sends a message that could have real consequences.

 

[♪alt13]

You already know the counter-argument to this, but I'll play along. If a million people share this exact same view and all stay at home instead of voting because they believe their single vote doesn't matter, suddenly it's not quite so simple. I used to share this point of view, but after W beat Gore on a technicality, I just can't anymore. After all, if the presidency can be won in a close election by the guy with fewer votes, there's a good chance that the difference was a small amount of people who thought their single vote was statistically impossible of making a difference.



No offense, but you and Colton both sound to me like you're in a state of denial. Realistically, it will come down to either Trump or Hillary. Most people would view it as deciding between the lesser of two evils, and it really is that simple. Now if you're a member of either party and you decide to vote for Micky Mouse or <insert guaranteed loser here> as a write-in, you're essentially giving your vote to the greater evil. Same thing goes for people who decide to just stay home and avoid voting altogether. That's just the reality of the situation.

For me, I'd rather have Bernie, but if for some reason he decided to run independent after losing the Dem. nomination, I'm 100% voting for Hillary. Even if I considered it a remote possibility that Bernie could pull it off, it's not worth the risk of letting Not-Hillary somehow become president.

P.S. When Hillary wins, how awesome would it be for her to say in her victory speech, "Mr. Trump, you're fired!"?

Newsflash Colton lives in Utah. Gary Johnson has a better shot at winning our vote than Hilary. W beat gore in Florida with (IIRC)much help from his bro. In all but a few states voting for a 3rd party has a larger impact than voting for the winner. It makes ballot access easier for that party, it gives them funds to push their agenda, increases their political legitimacy, and it encourages the gop/dnc to alter their platform.

Honestly you are in denial if you think your vote counts for more than that. Chances are you live somewhere where the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Waste your vote if you want, I'll use mine to support issues and candidates I think should be supported.(or cuz I think they are crazy fun. I voted for that polyg dude that used to canvas for votes from the potheads at liberty park to become Utah's governor saying that he would throw FBI agents in state prison. How could I not? The straw hat, overalls, and defiance were just too much to resist.)

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Newsflash Colton lives in Utah. Gary Johnson has a better shot at winning our vote than Hilary. W beat gore in Florida with (IIRC)much help from his bro. In all but a few states voting for a 3rd party has a larger impact than voting for the winner. It makes ballot access easier for that party, it gives them funds to push their agenda, increases their political legitimacy, and it encourages the gop/dnc to alter their platform.

Honestly you are in denial if you think your vote counts for more than that. Chances are you live somewhere where the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Waste your vote if you want, I'll use mine to support issues and candidates I think should be supported.(or cuz I think they are crazy fun. I voted for that polyg dude that used to canvas for votes from the potheads at liberty park to become Utah's governor saying that he would throw FBI agents in state prison. How could I not? The straw hat, overalls, and defiance were just too much to resist.)

Stupid post, and negged. I used to respect you, before you became crap.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Trump has a real chance to lead a nation of hate. If I belonged to the party of hate, I would be truly ashamed. Hang your heads, you hateful wads of disgrace.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

My fellow Americans, let us all hate together.

 

[Gameface]

Utah will not vote democrat as a majority. That's not a question here.

Voting for Hillary will not stop Trump from getting Utah's electoral votes.

I don't want Trump to win. I'd do anything to stop it. I'm not worried at all about Hillary being our next President. But I'm not going to vote for her as a way to block Trump. That's dumber than dumb in Utah. That's the real throwaway vote.

Show support for what it is you support. That makes way more a difference than playing this lesser of two evils game.

 

[Gameface]

Stupid post, and negged. I used to respect you, before you became crap.

Negged

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Utah will not vote democrat as a majority. That's not a question here.

Voting for Hillary will not stop Trump from getting Utah's electoral votes.

I don't want Trump to win. I'd do anything to stop it. I'm not worried at all about Hillary being our next President. But I'm not going to vote for her as a way to block Trump. That's dumber than dumb in Utah. That's the real throwaway vote.

Show support for what it is you support. That makes way more a difference than playing this lesser of two evils game.

stoked.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

My bad. My apologies to GF and Alt.

Seriously, though, for those of you who are religious, I'm curious about the prophecy of the anti-Christ. My understanding of this topic is a leader the people rally around who brings hate and death to the world in the form of a wall and execution of those of the Muslim faith.

Go ahead and vote for Trump.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Utah will not vote democrat as a majority. That's not a question here.

Voting for Hillary will not stop Trump from getting Utah's electoral votes.

I don't want Trump to win. I'd do anything to stop it. I'm not worried at all about Hillary being our next President. But I'm not going to vote for her as a way to block Trump. That's dumber than dumb in Utah. That's the real throwaway vote.

Show support for what it is you support. That makes way more a difference than playing this lesser of two evils game.

This might be the biggest turd of a post......