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Turning this bus incident into "Donald Trump was talking about literally sexually assaulting women!!" is so absurdly laughable. I don't believe any Male in this threads fake outrage. I don't believe that any of you actually think Donald is literally saying, "I'm going to grab that woman's vagina. I'm forreals going to."

I don't associate with, or build friendships with people that say stuff like that, because I find it disgusting, and I value myself more than being around garbage like that, but there has been many times I've been around small men in positions of authority that talk about women exactly like this. I found it gross, and I lost respect for those guys, but I wasn't calling 911 to report that a sexual assault was in the works either.

Actual examples I can remember off the top of my head:

I worked at a golf course in high school and overheard countless conversations between old men about the beverage cart girls.

"I'll put my balls in her hole any day." "Hey girl, ever had a hole in one." "Mhhmmm I'm gonna have her come over here and wash my balls."

What happens when the girl comes over to them with her cart?

"Hi darling, how are you? Having a good day? I'm not thirsty now, but maybe in a few holes. Ok, thanks!"

Guy says dirty things he's going to do to a girl around his friends, girl shows up and guy goes into super nice mode.

Another example:

A cute girl shows up for a preliminary interview at the place I was working. Boss pulls two of us into his office...

"Did you see that girl? I'm gonna have to do this interview myself boys, I can already tell she wants to sit on my pole. You guys think I should let her sit on my pole?"


I totally understand if someone saying this makes you lose respect for them, it probly should, but to all the Boy Scouts saying "wow Donald is bragging about literally sexually assaluting women!" give me a freaking break.
 
UGLI baby said:
Turning this bus incident into "Donald Trump was talking about literally sexually assaulting women!!" is so absurdly laughable. I don't believe any Male in this threads fake outrage. I don't believe that any of you actually think Donald is literally saying, "I'm going to grab that woman's vagina. I'm forreals going to."

I don't associate with, or build friendships with people that say stuff like that, because I find it disgusting, and I value myself more than being around garbage like that, but there has been many times I've been around small men in positions of authority that talk about women exactly like this. I found it gross, and I lost respect for those guys, but I wasn't calling 911 to report that a sexual assault was in the works either.

Actual examples I can remember off the top of my head:

I worked at a golf course in high school and overheard countless conversations between old men about the beverage cart girls.

"I'll put my balls in her hole any day." "Hey girl, ever had a hole in one." "Mhhmmm I'm gonna have her come over here and wash my balls."

What happens when the girl comes over to them with her cart?

"Hi darling, how are you? Having a good day? I'm not thirsty now, but maybe in a few holes. Ok, thanks!"

Guy says dirty things he's going to do to a girl around his friends, girl shows up and guy goes into super nice mode.

Another example:

A cute girl shows up for a preliminary interview at the place I was working. Boss pulls two of us into his office...

"Did you see that girl? I'm gonna have to do this interview myself boys, I can already tell she wants to sit on my pole. You guys think I should let her sit on my pole?"


I totally understand if someone saying this makes you lose respect for them, it probly should, but to all the Boy Scouts saying "wow Donald is bragging about literally sexually assaluting women!" give me a freaking break.
Click to expand...

Exactly

UGLI is one of the smarter people I know. Down to earth.


Almost every guy I know says all sorts of vulgar sexual things about girls when they arent around. Then treat them with repsect when they are.

Perfect example is Trump talking about all that stuff on the bus, then gets off and is a totally different person. He didnt reach out and grab her *****.

Liberals and their fake outrage. SMH
 
My outrage is real. **** you to UGLI for saying it isn't. **** you!
 
UGLI baby said:
Turning this bus incident into "Donald Trump was talking about literally sexually assaulting women!!" is so absurdly laughable. I don't believe any Male in this threads fake outrage. I don't believe that any of you actually think Donald is literally saying, "I'm going to grab that woman's vagina. I'm forreals going to."

I don't associate with, or build friendships with people that say stuff like that, because I find it disgusting, and I value myself more than being around garbage like that, but there has been many times I've been around small men in positions of authority that talk about women exactly like this. I found it gross, and I lost respect for those guys, but I wasn't calling 911 to report that a sexual assault was in the works either.

Actual examples I can remember off the top of my head:

I worked at a golf course in high school and overheard countless conversations between old men about the beverage cart girls.

"I'll put my balls in her hole any day." "Hey girl, ever had a hole in one." "Mhhmmm I'm gonna have her come over here and wash my balls."

What happens when the girl comes over to them with her cart?

"Hi darling, how are you? Having a good day? I'm not thirsty now, but maybe in a few holes. Ok, thanks!"

Guy says dirty things he's going to do to a girl around his friends, girl shows up and guy goes into super nice mode.

Another example:

A cute girl shows up for a preliminary interview at the place I was working. Boss pulls two of us into his office...

"Did you see that girl? I'm gonna have to do this interview myself boys, I can already tell she wants to sit on my pole. You guys think I should let her sit on my pole?"


I totally understand if someone saying this makes you lose respect for them, it probly should, but to all the Boy Scouts saying "wow Donald is bragging about literally sexually assaluting women!" give me a freaking break.
Click to expand...

I agree. We're men after all, and they're just women. It's just not possible than men might get upset, or even outraged, about someone bragging about grabbing women's genetalia. All you men pretending to care about how women feel about unwanted sexual advances, just stop it. You're not fooling anyone, least of all Ugli.
 
UGLI baby said:
Turning this bus incident into "Donald Trump was talking about literally sexually assaulting women!!" is so absurdly laughable. I don't believe any Male in this threads fake outrage. I don't believe that any of you actually think Donald is literally saying, "I'm going to grab that woman's vagina. I'm forreals going to."

I don't associate with, or build friendships with people that say stuff like that, because I find it disgusting, and I value myself more than being around garbage like that, but there has been many times I've been around small men in positions of authority that talk about women exactly like this. I found it gross, and I lost respect for those guys, but I wasn't calling 911 to report that a sexual assault was in the works either.

Actual examples I can remember off the top of my head:

I worked at a golf course in high school and overheard countless conversations between old men about the beverage cart girls.

"I'll put my balls in her hole any day." "Hey girl, ever had a hole in one." "Mhhmmm I'm gonna have her come over here and wash my balls."

What happens when the girl comes over to them with her cart?

"Hi darling, how are you? Having a good day? I'm not thirsty now, but maybe in a few holes. Ok, thanks!"

Guy says dirty things he's going to do to a girl around his friends, girl shows up and guy goes into super nice mode.

Another example:

A cute girl shows up for a preliminary interview at the place I was working. Boss pulls two of us into his office...

"Did you see that girl? I'm gonna have to do this interview myself boys, I can already tell she wants to sit on my pole. You guys think I should let her sit on my pole?"


I totally understand if someone saying this makes you lose respect for them, it probly should, but to all the Boy Scouts saying "wow Donald is bragging about literally sexually assaluting women!" give me a freaking break.
Click to expand...

I hear what you're saying, and there's plenty of sense in it. But one major difference I think needs to be added here. What Donald said was not "I'd like to do ______ with her," or "I think she wants to do ________ with me." He's saying something along the lines of "I can sexually assault her because...." That's not an insignificant difference. And it's especially large, I imagine, from the perspective of a woman who has been sexually assaulted.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I agree. We're men after all, and they're just women. It's just not possible than men might get upset, or even outraged, about someone bragging about grabbing women's genetalia. All you men pretending to care about how women feel about unwanted sexual advances, just stop it. You're not fooling anyone, least of all Ugli.
Click to expand...

You know how many women have told me they could drag me around by my balls?!!!
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I agree. We're men after all, and they're just women. It's just not possible than men might get upset, or even outraged, about someone bragging about grabbing women's genetalia. All you men pretending to care about how women feel about unwanted sexual advances, just stop it. You're not fooling anyone, least of all Ugli.
Click to expand...

I see what you're trying to do here, and I applaud. But, again, I'd like to say this isn't about "sexual advances".... perhaps we should call them "assaulting advances" or something like that?
 
Computer said:
Almost every guy I know says all sorts of vulgar sexual things about girls when they arent around. Then treat them with repsect when they are.
Click to expand...

Serious question--how old are you? I knew guys that did that in high school, but I know literally no one that would do that now (I'm 46).

If it had been a recording of Trump from high school, I wouldn't care too much. But a 60 year old??? It troubles me GREATLY that he wouldn't have grown out of that type of thing by now. (Even supposing it was "locker room" type of stuff, and that he hasn't actually done any actions like that. Which I'm not sure we can suppose.)
 
colton said:
Serious question--how old are you? I knew guys that did that in high school, but I know literally no one that would do that now (I'm 46).

If it had been a recording of Trump from high school, I wouldn't care too much. But a 60 year old??? It troubles me GREATLY that he wouldn't have grown out of that type of thing by now. (Even supposing it was "locker room" type of stuff, and that he hasn't actually done any actions like that. Which I'm not sure we can suppose.)
Click to expand...

You're also in a pretty sheltered environment.
 
NAOS said:
I hear what you're saying, and there's plenty of sense in it. But one major difference I think needs to be added here. What Donald said was not "I'd like to do ______ with her," or "I think she wants to do ________ with me." He's saying something along the lines of "I can sexually assault her because...." That's not an insignificant difference. And it's especially large, I imagine, from the perspective of a woman who has been sexually assaulted.
Click to expand...

True enough.

I think, moreover, that we, that is men, may aim for standards in how we talk about and treat women than what dirty old men say on golf courses or what horny, slimy bosses say in the work place. Just because some, or many, dicks act dickeshly toward women, this hardly sets the standard for how we ought to expect men to behave.
 
Even Donald back in 1998 thought he would have problems if he ran for President because of his "love of women" - even worse than Bill Clinton.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/decades-old-video-shows-trump-predict-his-campaign-problems-with-women-783048771685

This hasn't just come up now. I've known he was at best a serial sexual harasser and at worst a sexual predator for at least 20 years. There have been plenty of stories over the years. But sadly people haven't taken that stuff seriously until recently. Believe me, this is all so complicated for women. We constantly have to navigate a world that is difficult to understand. Men have the power in these situations. When you see how difficult it is to get any kind of justice for rape, how likely will anyone take your complaints of sexual assault and harassment seriously? If Donald Trump, a famous and wealthy man, grabs you by the genitals, what are you supposed to do? There is no one that will help you. You will be the one that is branded, not him. So you suck it up and die a little inside. And if you think that this doesn't happen to almost every woman at some point (not by the rich and famous but by the everyday men surrounding them), you are sadly mistaken. We just don't get to talk about it. However, at this point men at my work can be fired for saying and doing the things that Trump does, so why would we think he should be President?

Post on Facebook I saw today is long but contains some useful information.

David Gerrold
October 10 at 8:43pm ·

About ten years ago, I was managing a seminar for one of the best trainers in the world. There's an exercise called Secrets. The room is darkened and then everybody in the room, including most of the staff, has to put their hands over their eyes, or put their heads down on their desk.

Then the trainer goes through a list of questions.

"If you have ever ... raise your hand."

Because I was the course manager, I had to keep my eyes open to make sure the room stayed safe. So I was able to see how many hands went up for each question.

Most of the questions were gentle, even harmless, but all of the questions were designed to be cathartic. But a number of the questions cut right down to the bone.

There are things people carry around inside, a lot of hurt and guilt and shame and fear, but there's no safe place to unload those feelings, so the exercise allows some relief. The participants get to keep their secrets safe, but they get to acknowledge that they are holding these things that keep gnawing at them -- they get to own that part of their identity.

This particular time, however, when the trainer asked questions about abuse, about rape, about violence -- nearly every woman in the room raised her hand.

Now this was not a unique group of women. These were adult women of all ages, from early twenties to late sixties. Some were students, others were working women. Some were married, others were single or divorced. Some were highly skilled professionals. Some were strong family women.

"Have you ever been raped?" "Have you ever been molested?" "Have you ever been the target of physical or emotional abuse?" "Have you ever been made to feel ashamed of your identity?" "Have you ever held yourself back...?"

And worse.

Observing this for the first time, I felt tears running down my cheeks because of the level of pain in the room. All those pale hands, silent in the dark. A testimony of unspoken hurt. I felt my chest tightening and my heart pounding -- I felt myself getting angry, as angry as I felt when my son finally confessed to me how he had suffered at the hands of an abusive foster-parent. I wanted to find the perp and hurt back.

But no -- all I could do was remain a silent witness. Stunned and horrified.

Later ... much later, when the trainer and I went out to dinner, I had to ask. "Is this normal? All these women?" He said, "Sometimes it's worse."

Ever since that moment, I have had to look at women differently -- with the knowledge that I am living among a population that is very much carrying a burden of oppression -- not unlike the Jews in Nazi Germany, not unlike the slaves in the pre-civil war south. Not unlike so many populations here in this country and around the world.

White male privilege allows white males to exist in a bubble of ignorance and illusion. I have to generalize here, but I'm pretty sure that most men have no idea and even less understanding of just how steeply the landscape has been tilted -- just how much (through our unconsciousness) we are deliberately punishing half the human race.

This week, what has been most appalling to me about Donald Trump's despicable confession of being a sexual predator ... is not the various defenses of those who are trapped in his sinking lifeboat with him. No -- what's appalling to me is how few men are able to understand that what Trump spoke about was the "normal" that women experience every day. What is appalling to me is how few men are enraged.

I have been simmering, smoldering, and finally boiling with anger the more I consider his words. I can't get them out of my head. I can't escape them. Despite my pacifist leanings, I still want to punch that vile ******* in the face with a jackhammer. Words are insufficient.

And if I'm feeling that way, I cannot imagine how the women who have heard those words are feeling. This isn't a once-in-a-while occurrence. This is ... just another Tuesday.

Sidebar: There's a story about the filming of Django Unchained -- that Leonardo DiCaprio was having trouble with all the racist language he had to speak. He wanted to apologize for it. But Samuel L. Jackson (allegedly) said, "Hey, Mother******. This is just another Tuesday for us."

Well, I'm tired of Tuesday -- and the rest of the week as well.

I grew up in a time when anti-semitism was freely expressed. I grew up in a time and lived in an environment where anti-gay sentiments were freely expressed. And eventually, that sensitized me to a lot of other prejudices -- anti-black and anti-Muslim and anti-Native American, and so on.

But it wasn't until that moment in that training room that I realized what a pernicious vile crime against women we have allowed in our culture.

Women alone will not be the solution here. It is up to men, good men, strong men, compassionate men, to draw a line in the sand and redefine what it means to be a man -- and that can no longer include the reduction of women from their rightful place as leaders and partners in our society.

Trump is only a symptom. The real disease still festers in the rest of us.
Click to expand...

As a 56-year-old woman who has passed her years of attractiveness and health, I still have to deal with sexual harassment. My younger days were even more treacherous, and I have been grabbed and kissed and threatened. I was a good Mormon girl who was not hanging out with the "wrong crowd" and did not put myself into places where that type of behavior would be considered more likely to occur. I had no idea what I could do about it because the guys were stronger and more powerful - and there was no one to tell who could or would do anything about it. I knew I would be blamed by everyone, even though I did nothing to encourage it. My much more attractive sister will still not leave her house without her wedding ring because creepy men are more likely to hit on her without it, although she still gets plenty of unwanted attention. There still seems to be something in many man, unconscious or not, that leads them to believe that women should submit to their desires, their need to overpower and dominate. And we have to spend too much of our lives watching out for it.

Trump has encouraged the basest impulses in people. I'm hopeful that men are not allowing his actions and speech to encourage their misbehavior.
 
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JazzGal said:
Even Donald back in 1998 thought he would have problems if he ran for President because of his "love of women" - even worse than Bill Clinton.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/decades-old-video-shows-trump-predict-his-campaign-problems-with-women-783048771685

This hasn't just come up now. I've known he was at best a serial sexual harasser and at worst a sexual predator for at least 20 years. There have been plenty of stories over the years. But sadly people haven't taken that stuff seriously until recently. Believe me, this is all so complicated for women. We constantly have to navigate a world that is difficult to understand. Men have the power in these situations. When you see how difficult it is to get any kind of justice for rape, how likely will anyone take your complaints of sexual assault and harassment seriously? If Donald Trump, a famous and wealthy man, grabs you by the genitals, what are you supposed to do? There is no one that will help you. You will be the one that is branded, not him. So you suck it up and die a little inside. And if you think that this doesn't happen to almost every woman at some point (not by the rich and famous but by the everyday men surrounding them), you are sadly mistaken. We just don't get to talk about it. However, at this point men at my work can be fired for saying and doing the things that Trump does, so why would we think he should be President?
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this post JazzGal! I really appreciate your perspective.
 
NAOS said:
I hear what you're saying, and there's plenty of sense in it. But one major difference I think needs to be added here. What Donald said was not "I'd like to do ______ with her," or "I think she wants to do ________ with me." He's saying something along the lines of "I can sexually assault her because...." That's not an insignificant difference. And it's especially large, I imagine, from the perspective of a woman who has been sexually assaulted.
Click to expand...

I can see that, I just think he's speaking out of fantasy, stroking his own ego, "I'm such a star she won't be able to stop me." not saying something he's literally going to do.

When I've heard sleaze bags talk like this, I never heard them say, "When I'm done with her she won't be able to walk right for days. Assuming of course she is willing to consent to this sexual intercourse I am fantasizing about." It's assumed that none of this stuff they are saying will happen, which is how hey justify saying it in the first place.

Donald was trying to impress Billy Bush (he's an ego maniac that is extremely insecure). He was basically saying, "I bet I could throw a football over one of them mountains."
 
colton said:
Serious question--how old are you? I knew guys that did that in high school, but I know literally no one that would do that now (I'm 46).

If it had been a recording of Trump from high school, I wouldn't care too much. But a 60 year old??? It troubles me GREATLY that he wouldn't have grown out of that type of thing by now. (Even supposing it was "locker room" type of stuff, and that he hasn't actually done any actions like that. Which I'm not sure we can suppose.)
Click to expand...

The thing is, you are someone with a very high value for morals and you likely surround yourself with people who have similar values. You also work at a place where it would be extremely outrageous to hear a conversation like this.

I probably have pretty similar moral values to you, and surround myself with people who have similar values, but I've been in lots of situations with "dirty old men" in positions of power or influence.

I can tell you that of the two groups, older men are 100x more vulgar and detailed than high school guys when and if they are objectifying women.
 
Again, ****ing idiots support Trump in any manner. Not one tiny excuse needs to be made for such a vile pig. And he is vile in so many ways. ****ing idiots.
 
UGLI baby said:
I can see that, I just think he's speaking out of fantasy, stroking his own ego, "I'm such a star she won't be able to stop me." not saying something he's literally going to do.

When I've heard sleaze bags talk like this, I never heard them say, "When I'm done with her she won't be able to walk right for days. Assuming of course she is willing to consent to this sexual intercourse I am fantasizing about." It's assumed that none of this stuff they are saying will happen, which is how hey justify saying it in the first place.

Donald was trying to impress Billy Bush (he's an ego maniac that is extremely insecure). He was basically saying, "I bet I could throw a football over one of them mountains."
Click to expand...

Fair enough. My point, though, (I'm not sure why I feel like it needs to be restated) is that these comments shift the discourse into rape jokes/rape culture. And, as I think any social critic who takes comedy seriously will tell you, jokes (failed or not) do play some part in the quantities and qualities of actual rape. In other words, even if these are ego-stroking fantasies, they're significantly more disgusting than sexual harassment fantasies.

Also, to your point about not buying "fake outrage" from men: I think it is legitimate for men to be outraged by these comments, even if they don't convey it in a way that you find believable. Outrage, is, after all, difficult to describe well.
 
colton said:
Serious question--how old are you? I knew guys that did that in high school, but I know literally no one that would do that now (I'm 46).

If it had been a recording of Trump from high school, I wouldn't care too much. But a 60 year old??? It troubles me GREATLY that he wouldn't have grown out of that type of thing by now. (Even supposing it was "locker room" type of stuff, and that he hasn't actually done any actions like that. Which I'm not sure we can suppose.)
Click to expand...


Trump is 70-years-old.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
True enough.

I think, moreover, that we, that is men, may aim for standards in how we talk about and treat women than what dirty old men say on golf courses or what horny, slimy bosses say in the work place. Just because some, or many, dicks act dickeshly toward women, this hardly sets the standard for how we ought to expect men to behave.
Click to expand...


Agreed 100% was only talking about the fake outrage of "OMG Donald is literally bragging about molesting women." Instead of, "Wow, Donald is a douche bag and I don't want someone who talks like that to be President."

Why can't people just own their actual feelings? People have to exaggerate their reasoning for their feelings.

This is why we have one side saying...

Hillary should be in Jail!!

Hillary will take our guns!!

Hillary started ISIS and is in cahoots with them!

Or...

Trump is the next Hitler!!

Trump will start WWIII

in this election, people are turning up any fault with either candidate to Level 10 just to justify their own feelings. Would be interesting to hear what people actually think instead of them hiding behind the over the top, doomsday type stuff. It's a defense mechanism. Exaggerate your claims, so the other side can't possibly argue with you and so that you don't have to be vulnerable enough to share your actual thoughts.

(This isn't directed at you or your post, just started typing and went on a rant)
 
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