Game Thread Nov 02, 2022 06:30PM MT: Jazz at Mavericks

[fishonjazz]

Sir he only missed 1 FT all game. It was mostly the zone IMO. Also we went away from the rotations we were using when Gay/Kessler were out and that ruined our early game flow. Plus we played Sexton way too much instead of using our more diverse bench units.

Thank god we didn't play kessler at all in the second half. That is why we won the game. Mavs were scared to go inside against gay, KO, and vanderbilt due to the amazing rim protection.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not even commenting on THT's game.

Individual +/- is a meaningless stat to use to determine how a player is performing. Especially a role player. There's 9 other variables that go into it that are completely outside of the player's control.

What does it say when that player is consistently the worst plus minus player over a whole season? I’m sure it’s the other variables… right???

 

[fishonjazz]

League leaders in individual +/-:

1. Devin Booker
2. Goran Dragic
3. Alex Caruso
4. Scottie Barnes
5. Brook Lopez
6. Mikal Bridges
7. Jrue Holiday
8. Giannis notspellinghislastnameokumpo
9. Caris Lavert
10. Donovan Mitchell
11. Dejounte Murray
12. Dean Wade

Two Suns players (Suns are 6-1)
Three Bucks players (Bucks are 7-0)
Three Cavs players (Cavs are 6-1)

The remaining four are two Bulls role players, Scottie Barnes, and Dejounte Murray.

The lesson here? An individual's +/- is driven heavily by how good their overall team is. Remember who the league leaders were in +/- in 20-21? Gobert and Conley.

And another lesson? You can just look at free throws taken by each team to judge how fair or unfair the officiating was.

 

[MT Steve]

What does it say when that player is consistently the worst plus minus player over a whole season? I’m sure it’s the other variables… right???

I'd say context matters.

Mitchell's +/- was real mediocre while Gobert's and Conley's were godlike in 20-21. Was it because Conley was WAY better than Mitchell? Or was it because Conley and Gobert got to play in lineups vs opposing team's starters while Mitchell had to hold down the fort against opposing team's starters playing with our bench guys?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

League leaders in individual +/-:

1. Devin Booker
2. Goran Dragic
3. Alex Caruso
4. Scottie Barnes
5. Brook Lopez
6. Mikal Bridges
7. Jrue Holiday
8. Giannis notspellinghislastnameokumpo
9. Caris Lavert
10. Donovan Mitchell
11. Dejounte Murray
12. Dean Wade

Two Suns players (Suns are 6-1)
Three Bucks players (Bucks are 7-0)
Three Cavs players (Cavs are 6-1)

The remaining four are two Bulls role players, Scottie Barnes, and Dejounte Murray.

The lesson here? An individual's +/- is driven heavily by how good their overall team is. Remember who the league leaders were in +/- in 20-21? Gobert and Conley.

Also i wasn’t just using plus minus… go look at on/off for the whole team…

 

[Elizah Huge]

What does it say when that player is consistently the worst plus minus player over a whole season? I’m sure it’s the other variables… right???

Just bad luck on their part. The other 9 variables they can’t control just went against them all year.

 

[MT Steve]

And another lesson? You can just look at free throws taken by each team to judge how fair or unfair the officiating was.

Are you just going to be a dick to me everytime I post?

Let me know if so, so I can just put you on ignore going forward.

 

[MT Steve]

Also i wasn’t just using plus minus… go look at on/off for the whole team…

I'm only commenting on why individual +/- is a meaningless stat to use to measure a player's individual performance.

 

[fishonjazz]

This is where Kessler can be a major help.

I hope because im not seeing much else that could be in that regard.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'd say context matters.

Mitchell's +/- was real mediocre while Gobert's and Conley's were godlike in 20-21. Was it because Conley was WAY better than Mitchell? Or was it because Conley and Gobert got to play in lineups vs opposing team's starters while Mitchell had to hold down the fort against opposing team's starters playing with our bench guys?

Kewl… how does that apply to THT being the worst on/off rotation guy? Is it that the other bench guys are struggling too? Use all the context you want and it all points to this team being bad when he’s on the floor.

 

[fishonjazz]

Are you just going to be a dick to me everytime I post?

Let me know if so, so I can just put you on ignore going forward.

You thought i was being a dick by discussing officiating based off nothing more than free throws? I honestly didn't realize that was a dickish thing to post. Sorry bro.

 

[MT Steve]

Kewl… how does that apply to THT being the worst on/off rotation guy? Is it that the other bench guys are struggling too? Use all the context you want and it all points to this team being bad when he’s on the floor.

I've already explained, multiple times now, that I'm not even commenting on THT.

 

[MT Steve]

You thought i was being a dick by discussing officiating based off nothing more than free throws? I honestly didn't realize that was a dickish thing to post. Sorry bro.

People were bitching about FT's, so I posted them to show that there wasn't a discrepancy. They obviously aren't the only determining factor to whether or not the officiating was even, nor did I ever say they were.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I do, however, have a problem with people who repeatedly make zero effort to understand my argument, and take condescending jabs at me based on that lack of understanding. Which you, by far, are more guilty of than anybody else here. You've been on my *** incessantly this season in particular.

So once again, I ask, are you going to keep being a dick to me?

 

[Conestoga Finn]

Hey guys, are people in these forums always arguing with each others in a way that borderlines as attacks on a person, not to what he/she say? Or is that only because of frustration of the lost match? I assume every member here are Jazz fans anyway, thus infighting seems to me rather weird. Disagreements are ok, but just disagreeing for it's own sake... I don't get it.

 

[fishonjazz]

People were bitching about FT's, so I posted them to show that there wasn't a discrepancy. They obviously aren't the only determining factor to whether or not the officiating was even, nor did I ever say they were.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I do, however, have a problem with people who repeatedly make zero effort to understand my argument, and take condescending jabs at me based on that lack of understanding. Which you, by far, are more guilty of than anybody else here. You've been on my *** incessantly this season in particular.

So once again, I ask, are you going to keep being a dick to me?

Well see someone posted about plus minus to make a point. No one said plus/minus was the only determining factor. You were a dick to them. Then someone said the officiating was poor for us. You used free throws and nothing else to prove that was incorrect.
I'm only commenting on why free throws are a meaningless stat to use to measure an officiating crews performance. That is what is upsetting you?

 

[MT Steve]

I'm only commenting on why free throws are a meaningless stat to use to measure an officiating crews performance. That is what is upsetting you?

Freethrows are a meaningless stat to measure an officiating crew's performance? Are you being stupid on purpose?

 

[fishonjazz]

Freethrows are a meaningless stat to measure an officiating crew's performance? Are you being stupid on purpose?

I just copy and pasted what you wrote when you said plus/minus is a meaningless stat to measure a players performance and changed the wording. It isn't meaningless. It isn't everything but its not meaningless. Same with free throws.
I think you are a bit too easily riled up tonight for whatever reason. Might be time for a break.

 

[MT Steve]

I just copy and pasted what you wrote when you said plus/minus is a meaningless stat to measure a players performance. It isn't meaningless. It isn't everything but its not meaningless.

Sexton was horrible in the 1st half and had a +/- of +10 at halftime.
Sexton was much better in the 2nd half, and finished with a -4.

It's such a horrible metric in a single-game sample size, and this is one of a million examples that prove it.

I think you are a bit too easily riled up tonight for whatever reason. Might be time for a break.

I mean this is like the 10th time this season where you've willfully misunderstand my argument and used that as the basis for making condescending, dickish comments to me.

You did the same thing in the "Tanking or not" thread. And then Tony Jones himself came in and said the Jazz aren't tanking, while repeating the same arguments I made to you. That you didn't listen to, and misconstrued to mock me.

Anybody would be riled up when subjected to that as often as I have with you.

 

[fishonjazz]

Sexton was horrible in the 1st half and had a +/- of +10 at halftime.
Sexton was much better in the 2nd half, and finished with a -4.

It's such a horrible metric in a single-game sample size, and this is one of a million examples that prove it.



I mean this is like the 10th time this season where you've willfully misunderstand my argument and used that as the basis for making condescending, dickish comments to me.

You did the same thing in the "Tanking or not" thread. And then Tony Jones himself came in and said the Jazz aren't tanking, while repeating the same arguments I made to you. That you didn't listen to, and misconstrued to mock me.

Anybody would be riled up when subjected to that as often as I have with you.

I wasn't mocking you in the tanking or not thread. I was disagreeing with you. I think the jazz made trades to intentionally lose games this season. I will try to agree with you more in the future though. Im sorry. Again.

 

[MT Steve]

I will try to agree with you more in the future though.

You're doing it again. Right here.

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. When you deliberately misunderstand what I say, and use that as the basis for making a condescending comment, that's what's annoying.

And that's what you literally did again, right here. See what I mean?