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Obamacare

The Thriller said:
Ummmm no.

If you want the benefits of modern day universal health care system then you need to pay for its costs. The only way this can be paid for is with an individual mandate. Otherwise, you will have winners and losers (people who go bankrupt, become sick, and die for lack of coverage) and skyrocketing costs (because health care for uninsured is much more expensive). Get educated
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exactly IF YOU WANT IT!
comes back to my point about tyranny does not seem like tyranny if you agree.

here is the lil snag. I DO NOT WANT THE "BENEFITS" of universal HEALTHCARE!!!!!!!!



get it through your thick skull. not everybody WANTS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
DutchJazzer said:
exactly IF YOU WANT IT!
comes back to my point about tyranny does not seem like tyranny if you agree.

here is the lil snag. I DO NOT WANT THE "BENEFITS" of universal HEALTHCARE!!!!!!!!



get it through your thick skull. not everybody WANTS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Then move to Somalia. Pay as you go there. And if you suffer an accident or cannot pay, you die.

But modern western democracies have agreed that living longer and more fruitful lives because of modern day health care is better than not.

Dutch have ever been to a doctor? Hospital? Taken medication? Had surgery? Used an ambulance?

If you have then you have an interesting way of showing your contempt for universal health care.
 
I want Health insurance companies to go away. The amount of money they make is enough to pay for good health care for everyone. It is such a wasteful silly thing to pay for.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I want Health insurance companies to go away. The amount of money they make is enough to pay for good health care for everyone. It is such a wasteful silly thing to pay for.
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We are literally the only industrialized county in the world whose primary health care providers are for profit health insurance. For profit health insurance still exists in countries that have adopted the Bismarck and Beveridge systems. But they are for things such as dentistry, optometry, and cosmetics.

For profit health insurance companies providing health care like a commodity such as plasma tvs or cotton underwear is so ridiculous. Of course premiums will continue to skyrocket as actual coverage declines. That's how they make profit.

Health insurance can still exist in the Bismarck system. But they're nonprofit, cannot deny claims or deny anyone for pre-exisiting conditions, and negotiate with health care providers for specific costs. Meaning, when you undergo treatment, there is a set cost.

Here in America? The cost for any operation will literally have hundreds of different prices depending on your doctor, insurance, and state. It's such a joke that leads to more bloat and skyrocketing costs. The patient ends up being the biggest loser. As s/he's seen as merely a gold mine to extract from, not to treat.
 
The Thriller said:
Then move to Somalia. Pay as you go there. And if you suffer an accident or cannot pay, you die.

But modern western democracies have agreed that living longer and more fruitful lives because of modern day health care is better than not.

Dutch have ever been to a doctor? Hospital? Taken medication? Had surgery? Used an ambulance?

If you have then you have an interesting way of showing your contempt for universal health care.
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yes yes no no no


the free market can supply any and all of those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are acting like the only way to get that stuff is by government aka "at gun point".


i never agreed to it. yet i am forced to pay for it/ again TYRANNY! democracy is tyranny of the 50.000000000000000000000000001%
 
The Thriller said:
We are literally the only industrialized county in the world whose primary health care providers are for profit health insurance. For profit health insurance still exists in countries that have adopted the Bismarck and Beveridge systems. But they are for things such as dentistry, optometry, and cosmetics.

For profit health insurance companies providing health care like a commodity such as plasma tvs or cotton underwear is so ridiculous. Of course premiums will continue to skyrocket as actual coverage declines. That's how they make profit.

Health insurance can still exist in the Bismarck system. But they're nonprofit, cannot deny claims or deny anyone for pre-exisiting conditions, and negotiate with health care providers for specific costs. Meaning, when you undergo treatment, there is a set cost.

Here in America? The cost for any operation will literally have hundreds of different prices depending on your doctor, insurance, and state. It's such a joke that leads to more bloat and skyrocketing costs. The patient ends up being the biggest loser. As s/he's seen as merely a gold mine to extract from, not to treat.
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actually Bismarck is not the father of universal healthcare.
uber left winger ADOLF HITLER is. yes that guy!

but history had to be whitewashed! so they turned to Bismarck!

so next time whenever you use Bismarck, be truthful and use the real father of universal healthcares name. it is dishonest and disingenuous to use bismarck


Bismarck healthcare only applied to government workers, the elderly and the poor. maybe kinda like medicare/medicaid.

Hitler came with the whole universal HEALTHCARE. and covered everyone.

so Bismarck system covered only . old, elderly poor.

hitlers sytem covered every single HUMAN. ofcourse jews where considered subhuman!
 
Where's Dala? Does he still post here? I'd love to get his view on the Canadian system? It has some unfortunate shortcomings with long waiting times and physician shortages. However, Canadians overall
Have a much higher satisfaction rate than Americans do with their respective health care systems. And they pay a fraction of their GDP that we do.

One factor that I don't know how one would predict the scale, is the economic boom that health care reform would have on the United States? If we were to spend just what France or Germany does on health care, that would focus between 5-7 percent of our total GDP into more beneficial investments. Rather than pay for some insurance CEO yacht or hospital red tape, that money could be better focused in training, treatment, or technology.
 
That's one thing I love, when people complain about the rising cost of health care and blame Obamacare. It's like they don't remember the decade of record increases in health cost and insurance premiums that lead up to the passing of the ACA. The ACA wasn't passed in some happy fun time when insurance was cheap and health care costs were stagnant.

It reminds me of talking people before we went to war with Iraq (the overwhelming majority of you were enthusiastically for it, btw) and talking to them in 2006, when they tell you how dumb it was and how they knew it was a mistake the whole time.

The ACA is just one finger in the ****, but sea levels are rising and the **** has more holes than you have fingers.
 
Gameface said:
That's one thing I love, when people complain about the rising cost of health care and blame Obamacare. It's like they don't remember the decade of record increases in health cost and insurance premiums that lead up to the passing of the ACA. The ACA wasn't passed in some happy fun time when insurance was cheap and health care costs were stagnant.

It reminds me of talking people before we went to war with Iraq (the overwhelming majority of you were enthusiastically for it, btw) and talking to them in 2006, when they tell you how dumb it was and how they knew it was a mistake the whole time.

The ACA is just one finger in the ****, but sea levels are rising and the **** has more holes than you have fingers.
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rhymes with bike, and it's used to prevent flooding
 
America being the last developed country to hold out on non-public health care is very cute.
 
The Thriller said:
Where's Dala? Does he still post here? I'd love to get his view on the Canadian system? It has some unfortunate shortcomings with long waiting times and physician shortages. However, Canadians overall
Have a much higher satisfaction rate than Americans do with their respective health care systems. And they pay a fraction of their GDP that we do.

One factor that I don't know how one would predict the scale, is the economic boom that health care reform would have on the United States? If we were to spend just what France or Germany does on health care, that would focus between 5-7 percent of our total GDP into more beneficial investments. Rather than pay for some insurance CEO yacht or hospital red tape, that money could be better focused in training, treatment, or technology.
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Moving to non-profit insurance will not solve the problem, as insurance is only one piece. Many insurance companies are making far less under the ACA than pre-ACA. The problem, is we try and have a market based health system in a globalized health system that is not market based. Particularly, pharmaceutical, durable medical equipment, etc. We pay many times more for drugs, diagnostics, imaging, etc. than any other industrialized country. I posted information a year or two ago that shows that while our government and our citizens pay more than every other country for care, we go to the Dr. and hospital less often.

Why is this? Simple. Most industrialized countries cap what medical companies can be reimbursed/paid for their drugs/equipment. So a pill in Canada may cost $1 and it could cost $50 in America. We are the only industrialized country that does not have serious pay caps of some sort in place. Essentially, we are allowing all of these medical companies to make a profit. The U.S. has 4-5% of the worlds population but provides for something like 70% of profits for pharmaceutical companies. I am all for a free market economy, but in a global market, where we are the only one doing it, it simply does not work.

So all of these comparisons that other countries get the same or better care for lower cost is created by this unbalanced system. The U.S. needs to put similar cost controls in place, which may result in loss in innovation, or lack of availability of drugs and services (if a pharmaceutical company can't make money on a drug, they'll stop making it). This will ultimately result in other countries having to raise their caps to continue to receive the same services. It is time for the U.S. to stop subsidizing the world health market.

And while the ACA may be "dismantled", Trump wants to keep some of the most problematic pieces. If you can't exclude coverage for a pre-existing condition, why would I pay for insurance before I get sick? If I can get insurance on my home after my house burns down, that is what I will do. I understand the thought behind it, but it turns cost-sharing (insurance) into a redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the poor.

Honestly, I'd love the U.S. to go to a single payer system. Our costs will drop, and the rest of the worlds will go up.
 
JAZZGASM said:
Moving to non-profit insurance will not solve the problem, as insurance is only one piece. Many insurance companies are making far less under the ACA than pre-ACA. The problem, is we try and have a market based health system in a globalized health system that is not market based. Particularly, pharmaceutical, durable medical equipment, etc. We pay many times more for drugs, diagnostics, imaging, etc. than any other industrialized country. I posted information a year or two ago that shows that while our government and our citizens pay more than every other country for care, we go to the Dr. and hospital less often.

Why is this? Simple. Most industrialized countries cap what medical companies can be reimbursed/paid for their drugs/equipment. So a pill in Canada may cost $1 and it could cost $50 in America. We are the only industrialized country that does not have serious pay caps of some sort in place. Essentially, we are allowing all of these medical companies to make a profit. The U.S. has 4-5% of the worlds population but provides for something like 70% of profits for pharmaceutical companies. I am all for a free market economy, but in a global market, where we are the only one doing it, it simply does not work.

So all of these comparisons that other countries get the same or better care for lower cost is created by this unbalanced system. The U.S. needs to put similar cost controls in place, which may result in loss in innovation, or lack of availability of drugs and services (if a pharmaceutical company can't make money on a drug, they'll stop making it). This will ultimately result in other countries having to raise their caps to continue to receive the same services. It is time for the U.S. to stop subsidizing the world health market.

And while the ACA may be "dismantled", Trump wants to keep some of the most problematic pieces. If you can't exclude coverage for a pre-existing condition, why would I pay for insurance before I get sick? If I can get insurance on my home after my house burns down, that is what I will do. I understand the thought behind it, but it turns cost-sharing (insurance) into a redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the poor.

Honestly, I'd love the U.S. to go to a single payer system. Our costs will drop, and the rest of the worlds will go up.
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Yes, it's true, price regulation can and will be established. That's not bad for most parties. It's good for patients, the government, doctors, the country, etc. about the only people it's bad for would be big oharm and greedy for profit insurance companies.

But shouldn't health care be about like... treating people and curing stuff? Don't we have enough for profit markets out there? Let's stop treating health care like it's a dot come startup and treat it more like infrastructure or defense; a public need rather than commodity.

One of the greatest missteps in creating Obamacare was to allow people to refuse health insurance and only receive a tap on the wrist. Most industrialized countries give their populace x time to sign up for a plan then they automatically sign them up for one. If they still refuse to pay then their checks are garnished.

This ensures that everyone is slapping some skin into the game.

The problem is here in America Obamacare permits Americans to go uninsured by paying a tiny fine. Yet, when these people get sick they visit the ER or tally up huge debts at the hospital. Which is then passed onto the rest of us responsible insured people. Thus contributing to our ever increasing premiums. It's ridiculous.
 
The Thriller said:
Yes, it's true, price regulation can and will be established. That's not bad for most parties. It's good for patients, the government, doctors, the country, etc. about the only people it's bad for would be big oharm and greedy for profit insurance companies.

But shouldn't health care be about like... treating people and curing stuff? Don't we have enough for profit markets out there? Let's stop treating health care like it's a dot come startup and treat it more like infrastructure or defense; a public need rather than commodity.

One of the greatest missteps in creating Obamacare was to allow people to refuse health insurance and only receive a tap on the wrist. Most industrialized countries give their populace x time to sign up for a plan then they automatically sign them up for one. If they still refuse to pay then their checks are garnished.

This ensures that everyone is slapping some skin into the game.

The problem is here in America Obamacare permits Americans to go uninsured by paying a tiny fine. Yet, when these people get sick they visit the ER or tally up huge debts at the hospital. Which is then passed onto the rest of us responsible insured people. Thus contributing to our ever increasing premiums. It's ridiculous.
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You have a weird view of a tiny fine. Have you looked at the penalties? Or had to pay one?



I would gladly pay for a comprehensive system such as Germany's if we could get one in place. I just don't see it happening. Not in my lifetime anyway. It is a task that literally NONE of our current politicians are up to with their constant petty pissing matches that has held this country stagnant for 20+ years.
 
LogGrad98 said:
You have a weird view of a tiny fine. Have you looked at the penalties? Or had to pay one?



I would gladly pay for a comprehensive system such as Germany's if we could get one in place. I just don't see it happening. Not in my lifetime anyway. It is a task that literally NONE of our current politicians are up to with their constant petty pissing matches that has held this country stagnant for 20+ years.
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From the ACA's website:

The fee is increasing for 2016. For 2015, the penalty for no health insurance is $325 per person or 2% of your annual household income – whichever is higher. For 2016, the fee is $695 or 2.5% of your income — whichever is higher. For many people, that’s more than the yearly cost of health plans they can find on HealthCare.gov.
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For someone making $30k that fine will be something like $750 bucks. That's it. Essentially the total sum of 3-4 months of premiums on some of the cheapest ACA plans would be. I personally know of several people arrogant enough to feel that they don't need insurance and would rather pay the fine and pocket the savings than obtain insurance... which works out great for them until they have a terrible accident or illness.

The fines need to be a lot stiffer or they need to automatically be signed up for some insurance and have their pay checks garnished. If we are going to rely on a health insurance based healthcare system then everyone he needs to slap some skin into this game.
 
Why are Americans so paranoid of outsiders? Why are we so scared to look at countries like Germany, Japan, and France for health care solutions? These countries maintain top notch treatments and services and have had to deal with an aging population (which is what we are transitioning to). Why do people automatically assume that single payer means government owns everything and employs everyone involved in health care?

Why do we still maintain this false notion that our health care system is giving us superior results when in reality, we are at the lower end of the spectrum of industrialied nations by nearly every metric available? I'm not sure Americans realize that we are paying 6-7 percent more of our GDP than Canada, France, Japan, etc yet receiving worse results.
 
The Thriller said:
From the ACA's website:



For someone making $30k that fine will be something like $750 bucks. That's it. Essentially the total sum of 3-4 months of premiums on some of the cheapest ACA plans would be. I personally know of several people arrogant enough to feel that they don't need insurance and would rather pay the fine and pocket the savings than obtain insurance... which works out great for them until they have a terrible accident or illness.

The fines need to be a lot stiffer or they need to automatically be signed up for some insurance and have their pay checks garnished. If we are going to rely on a health insurance based healthcare system then everyone he needs to slap some skin into this game.
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Commerce clause...
 
The Thriller said:
From the ACA's website:



For someone making $30k that fine will be something like $750 bucks. That's it. Essentially the total sum of 3-4 months of premiums on some of the cheapest ACA plans would be. I personally know of several people arrogant enough to feel that they don't need insurance and would rather pay the fine and pocket the savings than obtain insurance... which works out great for them until they have a terrible accident or illness.

The fines need to be a lot stiffer or they need to automatically be signed up for some insurance and have their pay checks garnished. If we are going to rely on a health insurance based healthcare system then everyone he needs to slap some skin into this game.
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Again showing you're out of touch. For many making that 30k they can't afford the premiums either. Many are scraping by. My son is in that category and is trying to take care is a family on that amount. Luckily his exemption application was accepted. But my daughter's wasn't. She will pay a fine she can't afford. And auto enrolment us substandard plans doesn't help anyone, other than subsidizing other plans. The plan my son could have had was a purely catastrophic plan that still would have cost more than his car insurance and payment every month and had no coverage for prescriptions, which is his biggest medical cost. My penalty for being unemployed for 4 months is over $400 per month during that time frame when I had no income, but since my annual was higher I didn't qualify for any assistance either. It is a deeply flawed system and needs to be reversed or better replaced. But I don't ever see that happening. Too much political skin in this game. So much for our elected representatives making decisions based on what's best for the constituency.
 
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