Omnibus Gordon Hayward Thread (To clean up the Board some)

[seattlejazzfan]

DL has effectively traded:

Millsap, Jefferson, Marvin, Mo, Carroll, Foye, 2013 #21 pick, 2013 #14 pick, 2013 #46 pick, 2014 #35 pick

for:

Burke, Hood, Gobert, moving up ~10 spots in the 2014 draft (Exum), a 2017 1st-Round pick (from GSW) and a 2016 2nd-Round pick


Are the Jazz any closer to contention now than they were 2 years ago? Is the current collection of assets clearly better than the collection of assets DL inherited?

They were stagnant with that first group. They simply weren't going anywhere. Sometimes you have to give up to go up. Sure it might not work, but if you want to win, you have to take your swings.

Is this collection better? The jury is still out. As a fan, even if it ultimately doesn't work, I'm glad they took a chance rather than being an 8 seed or drafting 14th in the lottery every season.

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[fishonjazz]

And FWIW, I don't see how anyone can argue this offseason isn't just a salary bubble, like the tech or housing bubbles. Teams will overspend in the arms race, but next season when the number of teams with cap space is greatly reduced, salaries will contract. So the argument for paying ridiculously overpaying Hayward now is like the argument of buying 1 million for a suburban tract home in 2006 because, hey, real estate always goes up.

Good post

 

[fishonjazz]

Probably worth pointing out that the Celtics just landed a 1st, Marcus Thornton (expiring) and Tyler Zeller (cheap, option can be declined(?)) for cap space.

damn, that's a pretty good haul.

 

[mellow]

DL has effectively traded:

Millsap, Jefferson, Marvin, Mo, Carroll, Foye, 2013 #21 pick, 2013 #14 pick, 2013 #46 pick, 2014 #35 pick

for:

Burke, Hood, Gobert, moving up ~10 spots in the 2014 draft (Exum), a 2017 1st-Round pick (from GSW) and a 2016 2nd-Round pick


Are the Jazz any closer to contention now than they were 2 years ago? Is the current collection of assets clearly better than the collection of assets DL inherited?

But you can't skip steps! Never mind that the mysterious steps have never been named or numbered. It is good enough for the fans and media to know that we just can't skip any of them.

I'm still considering the idea that the Spurs sent out their minions to Utah, Philly, and Orlando to weaken the playing field by destroying the competing from within. Looking at the deals the three teams have been involved with it would be hard to argue otherwise.

 

[Stifle Tower]

He started with a playoff team with decent assets. The Jazz are young now, but the team is far worse, and it's not clear if the players/picks on the team now are worth more than the players/picks DL inherited.

Fair enough. But a bit generous on the team outlook.

The Jazz were a "fringe" playoff team? They barely made it as the 8th seed and got swept in the first round. They missed the next season despite having pretty much the same roster. At some point, you have to decide whether you want to just contend for the 8th seed or try to rebuild. Keeping Millsap, Carroll, etc. would have made the team competitive. Would they have made the playoffs? Doubtful. The number 8 seed in the WC won 49 games. So let's say they finish around .500 and get the 12th pick in the draft.

Also factor in new contracts for Big Al and Paul if you want to maintain that "playoff" team. Give them raises, keep other vets and there is little room to make any other changes. You also face losing Favors or Hayward (or others) in 2014/15 because paying $12M for Favors and the same or max for Gordon puts the Jazz into the luxury tax or, even if you CAN fit those two, you certainly can't fit Kanter and Burks the year after.

Scenario 1: Jazz add Lavine or Warren to a lineup that has Millsap, Favors, Kanter as the bigs, Carroll, Hayward and Burks as the wings and Mo Williams (or another vet PG). And we're talking about 2012 DeMarre, not the one who claims he developed his game under Snyder.

Outlook: Can they win 48-50 games and make the playoffs? Who do you keep/trade starting in 2014/15 to stay under the tax threshold?

Scenario 2: Time to rebuild. Out with the old, acquire additional assets, "tank" to get a top-8 pick.

Outlook: Will Exum be a franchise player. Will he have more impact than Warren or Lavine? Does Hood contribute (Jazz don't get the pick without the rebuild).

I'd have to give Lindsey a "B" grade. I understand the plan, even though the outcome is not yet known. And in the last draft, arguably one of the weakest in NBA history, he at least got some serviceable players in Burke, Gobert and probably Neto. All 3 have shown indications they can - at the very worst - be rotation players. That can't be said for the majority of 2013 picks.

 

[GVC]

They were stagnant with that first group. They simply weren't going anywhere. Sometimes you have to give up to go up. Sure it might not work, but if you want to win, you have to take your swings.

Is this collection better? The jury is still out. As a fan, even if it ultimately doesn't work, I'm glad they took a chance rather than being an 8 seed or drafting 14th in the lottery every season.

2 things:

1. None of that changes the fact that DL sat on his hands in Year 1, getting nothing for his top players in trades.

2. Letting players walk is easy if ownership gives you the green light. GMs should be evaluated on how well they do with that freedom. Jury is still out on DL's moves.

 

[GVC]

damn, that's a pretty good haul.

But what are we going to do with the cap space?????

****ing morons.

 

[fishonjazz]

But what are we going to do with the cap space?????

****ing morons.

Cap space sucks

Overpaying and handing out bad contracts rulez!!!!!

 

[Stoked]

Liar? Did he ever comment publicly that he would match any offer or have we just been relying on reports to that effect?

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Multiple reports, including people with a good record of accuracy.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

DL has effectively traded:

Millsap, Jefferson, Marvin, Mo, Carroll, Foye, 2013 #21 pick, 2013 #14 pick, 2013 #46 pick, 2014 #35 pick

for:

Burke, Hood, Gobert, moving up ~10 spots in the 2014 draft (Exum), a 2017 1st-Round pick (from GSW) and a 2016 2nd-Round pick


Are the Jazz any closer to contention now than they were 2 years ago? Is the current collection of assets clearly better than the collection of assets DL inherited?

I agree with your apprehension, but Lindsey should get some nod for piloting us to Exum.

 

[Stoked]

2 things:

1. None of that changes the fact that DL sat on his hands in Year 1, getting nothing for his top players in trades.

2. Letting players walk is easy if ownership gives you the green light. GMs should be evaluated on how well they do with that freedom. Jury is still out on DL's moves.

From what I understood year 1 was a learning curve for him and KOC still ran the show. Is that not accurate?

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Multiple reports, including people with a good record of accuracy.

Right and I believe the reports, but if it didn't come from his mouth, he can always deny. Therefore, no liar.

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[Stoked]

Right and I believe the reports, but if it didn't come from his mouth, he can always deny. Therefore, no liar.

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Fair enough. Wonder if he mentioned it on one of his interviews with Locke or 1280.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

2 things:

1. None of that changes the fact that DL sat on his hands in Year 1, getting nothing for his top players in trades.

2. Letting players walk is easy if ownership gives you the green light. GMs should be evaluated on how well they do with that freedom. Jury is still out on DL's moves.

Agree on both counts. As a fan I'm glad they let those guys walk.

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[Chargers Jazz Angels]

lol Marvin for 7-8 he is only going to get offers for 4-5.

 

[colton]

But you can't skip steps! Never mind that the mysterious steps have never been named or numbered. It is good enough for the fans and media to know that we just can't skip any of them.

Yes, that continually bugs me whenever he says that.

 

[Stifle Tower]

But you can't skip steps! Never mind that the mysterious steps have never been named or numbered. It is good enough for the fans and media to know that we just can't skip any of them.

I'm still considering the idea that the Spurs sent out their minions to Utah, Philly, and Orlando to weaken the playing field by destroying the competing from within. Looking at the deals the three teams have been involved with it would be hard to argue otherwise.

Bloody hell. You act like you can rebuild in 1 season.
If Exum isn't Kobe next season, FIRE LINDSEY. We were tanking to get a franchise player and the tank is wasted if Exum isn't a 20/10 player from Day #1.

So all of you were happy with a roster full of vets, including Big Al, Paul and Demarre that MISSED the playoffs. Fine, let's keep the status quo, add a 12th-14th pick every season. Maybe make the playoffs every other year and - if all goes well - maybe even win ONE home game.

How many losing seasons did OKC have in building their team? How did SA get Duncan?
Utah ain't South Beach. Sorry, but three superstars aren't going to join forces to build a contender in the city of Utah. Millers aren't Prokhorov; they can't spend $150M on payroll.

Teams rebuild. They go through bad stretches.
Lakers after Magic (and then after Shaq), Boston after Bird (and now after Garnett, Pierce, Allen), Chicago after MJ, even Utah after Malone/Stockton. Every other team in the league has rebuilt. SA was the luckiest franchise ever. The one season they had serious injuries netted them Tim Duncan.

Of course Utah was almost that lucky. KOC "retooled" with FA's and the one season the Jazz were a MASH unit resulted in the Deron draft.

The skipping steps just means signing mid-tier, aging FA's to big contracts just to make the playoffs. That's the model of the Knicks, Nets, etc. To be a successful small-market team you need to draft well, develop those players into all-stars and hope they stay with you at reasonable contract values. What has made SA so damn successful? Look at their payroll. They can bring in great FA additions because Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are earning much less than they could anywhere else.

 

[fishonjazz]

Your right Big Country Hayward could have signed a deal last year and he would probably have good feelings amongst Jazz fans. Instead, Gordon Kirelenko thought he would put up big numbers last year. Instead, Amare Hayward shot miserably and sulked most of the year. We'll see if Ben Gordon Hayward can live up to his contract.

Made me laugh

 

[fishonjazz]

Jury is still out on DL's moves.

This.

 

[Growlor]

What happened?

For the past two years we have been hearing repeatedly that the greatest asset the Jazz has is cap space.
Over and over we have heard that with the new CBA teams will be hamstrung by contracts and the few teams with cap space will have the freedom to grab assets without fear of price gouging.

Here we are at the moment we should be reaping the rewards of our greatest asset, and it is biting us in the a$$.