https://crommunist.com/2014/04/08/white-people-on-offence/#more-8624
The Crommunist looks at a phrase he sees too often.
The Crommunist looks at a phrase he sees too often.
On telling someone who the "real racist" is
- Thread starter One Brow
- Start date
tl;dr
The notion that experience with racism gives you a better perspective on what is or is not racist, and people of color have more experience with racism than white people, so when white people say that the person of color is being the "real racist", you need to account for that difference.
The notion that experience with racism gives you a better perspective on what is or is not racist, and people of color have more experience with racism than white people, so when white people say that the person of color is being the "real racist", you need to account for that difference.
Hmmm...interesting. I will have to think on that.
I will admit that experinces affect our view on ideas. So naturally there would be differences. But just because someone is more experienced or less experienced with racism does not make their claims of racism and more, or less, true.
Racism, in my view, is being used as a charge against someone simply because they did not give you what you want or do things your way. Doing so only lessens the severity of the charge over all and makes people tone deaf to it. A crying wolf scenario if you will.
If you are going to take the time to think about it, why not also take the time to read the link?
green
Well-Known Member
I think the real problem is, we use that word too often.
There is a difference between racism, not agreeing with a thought or idea, and/or just not liking an individual. The problem with the word "racism" or "racist" is that it is evolving into the "god" realm. Such as, when you are in a debate with someone and they say, "well, God told me." The debate ends. You can't discuss topics with that person, because if they believe God told them, then they won't be swayed.
So, in the same vein, if someone doesn't agree with you, the easiest way to win the debate, is toss out the "racism/racist" word, and you're done. Argument over, they won (troutbum/Wells is the best at this). It doesn't matter how right you may be or how wrong they are, they win. You are now the racist.
I think the "real racist" comment extends from that. It is the way to "fight back".
Anyways, just my two cents.
There is a difference between racism, not agreeing with a thought or idea, and/or just not liking an individual. The problem with the word "racism" or "racist" is that it is evolving into the "god" realm. Such as, when you are in a debate with someone and they say, "well, God told me." The debate ends. You can't discuss topics with that person, because if they believe God told them, then they won't be swayed.
So, in the same vein, if someone doesn't agree with you, the easiest way to win the debate, is toss out the "racism/racist" word, and you're done. Argument over, they won (troutbum/Wells is the best at this). It doesn't matter how right you may be or how wrong they are, they win. You are now the racist.
I think the "real racist" comment extends from that. It is the way to "fight back".
Anyways, just my two cents.
There is a reason I won't click the link. It is not a simple TLDR scenario.
Does the reason apply at home as well?
Instead of thinking of this in terms of a fight, why not try a cooperative approach? Ask them why they see the position as racist; what the message is that they see and you do not. If you get a response, don't come back with a counter until you think it over for a day or so. It's so easy to get caught up in a back-and-forth; it's so hard to just listen (yes, this applies to me at times as well).
green
Well-Known Member
This is great advice.
There is always middle ground. I think societies biggest issue is that we no longer want middle ground. We all want our way or we want to take our ball and go home.
Let's get back to the middle ground.
green
Well-Known Member
Here is my take on the article. Until Fox News, and MSNBC, and our policiticians and writers, like the writer you linked to, stop saying things like:
"white people are far less likely (some would say it is definitionally impossible) to experience racism than are PoC. It seems preposterous to assume that you, a person with no experience in the topic under discussion, would be in a position to lecture someone about that topic"
Then we know that they aren't in it to find a solution, but to make a buck.
Game over for me at that point. I'm not interested in hearing what you have to say anymore. Like I mentioned above, you just told me that "god" is directing you (or in this case, you believe that it is impossible for a white person to be discriminated against), and you don't want to hear anything I have to say. You just want to push your agenda, charge me for it, and move on.
So, I guess he won. I clicked his link, and he made his money. Goal accomplished, and now the world is a little worse off because of it.
Another comical quote:
"Regardless, the point remains that it is deeply bizarre that a white person would appoint hirself the objective arbiter of what is and is not racism, over a PoC. It is a preposterous arrogance in any other circumstance, treated with loathing akin to what we assign backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks. And yet we see this ridiculous pattern pop up again and again."
The most comical quote of the day, after he gives the quotes above, is this:
"Hypocrisy, properly done, requires selective omission of the obvious...But the rest of us, those not so dazzled by their self-regard that they able to see through the banal falsity of such posturing, we recognize that racism is real and has real effects and is not some convenient flail with which to thrash our opponents."
Kettle, let me introduce to Mr. Pot over here.
Again, as long as we take articles like this seriously, nothing will change, and the world will continue to decline.
Why is is always, I'm right, and you are dumb for not agreeing with me?
Why can't he come and say, "look, I don't agree with this "real racist" term because of 1, 2, and 3. Then listen to the other side?
Why does he have to come and say, this isn't true because of 1, 2, and 3, and if you don't believe me, your dumb, because it is impossible to know how I feel, and you are white and white people are just racist anyways and the redskins and indians mascots prove this?
"white people are far less likely (some would say it is definitionally impossible) to experience racism than are PoC. It seems preposterous to assume that you, a person with no experience in the topic under discussion, would be in a position to lecture someone about that topic"
Then we know that they aren't in it to find a solution, but to make a buck.
Game over for me at that point. I'm not interested in hearing what you have to say anymore. Like I mentioned above, you just told me that "god" is directing you (or in this case, you believe that it is impossible for a white person to be discriminated against), and you don't want to hear anything I have to say. You just want to push your agenda, charge me for it, and move on.
So, I guess he won. I clicked his link, and he made his money. Goal accomplished, and now the world is a little worse off because of it.
Another comical quote:
"Regardless, the point remains that it is deeply bizarre that a white person would appoint hirself the objective arbiter of what is and is not racism, over a PoC. It is a preposterous arrogance in any other circumstance, treated with loathing akin to what we assign backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks. And yet we see this ridiculous pattern pop up again and again."
The most comical quote of the day, after he gives the quotes above, is this:
"Hypocrisy, properly done, requires selective omission of the obvious...But the rest of us, those not so dazzled by their self-regard that they able to see through the banal falsity of such posturing, we recognize that racism is real and has real effects and is not some convenient flail with which to thrash our opponents."
Kettle, let me introduce to Mr. Pot over here.
Again, as long as we take articles like this seriously, nothing will change, and the world will continue to decline.
Why is is always, I'm right, and you are dumb for not agreeing with me?
Why can't he come and say, "look, I don't agree with this "real racist" term because of 1, 2, and 3. Then listen to the other side?
Why does he have to come and say, this isn't true because of 1, 2, and 3, and if you don't believe me, your dumb, because it is impossible to know how I feel, and you are white and white people are just racist anyways and the redskins and indians mascots prove this?
green
Well-Known Member
Here is what should happen:
First, we need to decide if a white person can feel the feelings of racism, or can they emphasize with someone who has gone through racism.
That's the first step.
So, can a white person know what it is like to be discriminated against because of their skin color?
First, we need to decide if a white person can feel the feelings of racism, or can they emphasize with someone who has gone through racism.
That's the first step.
So, can a white person know what it is like to be discriminated against because of their skin color?
No it does not.
LogGrad98
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I am white so I probably can't say. But there is a salvadoran place here that makes the best pupusas I have ever had. They have $1 pupusas on Wednesdays, so that is a killer deal, and at work it has become known as Pupusa Wednesday. Normally some people at work pick them up, and I just pay for them with the company card, for work lunches obviously. One night I was running late so I decided to pick them up. I called in my order, 20 pupusas (we have ordered as many as 100 at a time...good times =) and they said it would be about 30-45 minutes. I got there a little early and engaged one of the waitresses in small talk, talked up the pupusas big time, and noticed I was the only white person in the whole place. They seemed very good-natured, and I ordered a drink while I waited. And waited. And waited. And waited. 45 minutes in (after giving them nearly a half hour after I ordered, so now an hour and 15 minutes) I asked how much longer it would be. The women behind the counter all gave me weird looks and glanced over their shoulders. One of them told me it would be just a few more minutes. During this time I witnessed a lot of non-white people coming in and ordering, anywhere from 10 to 50 pupusas (can tell from the packaging), and I asked one of them who had to wait a few minutes for what looked like 30 or so if he called in his order, which he said he never did like it was a stupid idea to call in an order. He had his order in about 10 minutes. They all ordered, paid, got their food, and left, and none of them were white.
And still I waited. And waited. I was about ready to ask for my money back when a very disagreeable male come out and asked me what I had ordered. I told him and he turned away and went in the back again, slamming the door, blabbering loudly in spanish I assumed. I looked around and everyone in the place were looking at me, workers and customers alike. I felt incredibly self-conscious and was about to just walk out when one of the women came out with a bag with my order. Normally they are piping hot when we get them, but these were luke-warm at best (could feel it through the package). She was very apologetic until he yelled something at her and she just turned away. I did catch a few words, like the "P" word, if you know what I mean. And as I left no one would make eye contact with me.
So at work I told my co-workers about this, and about then realized that normally the people who pick up the orders are non-white as well. They laughed and said "yeah that guy hates whites, we should have warned you."
I think I got a small taste of what that is like (I have traveled enough that it wasn't my first such experience like that either). I think I am also intelligent enough to be able to empathize from such experiences, although there are obviously certain things I will likely never be able to directly relate to.
As an aside, 12 Years a Slave is a great example of what it would be like for someone to gain that experience first-hand when they grew up not really knowing what it was like to be a slave at all, although I am sure still experienced racist actions during his life before the events of the movie. Eye-opening movie really.
AtheistPreacher
Well-Known Member
One also wonders why a white person who had experienced discrimination for some reason other than race (gender, sexual orientation, religion, political affiliation, disability, etc.) would have nothing valid to say about racism. And are only the people who have personally experienced each specific form of these types of discrimination entitled to comment on those forms? I wonder, what other subjects could we not possibly have valid opinions on? And who gets to decide whose opinions are invalid from the start?
Pot meet kettle, indeed.
First, that was a very insulting thing to say. It carries with it not only a personal assumption, but also a large social history.
Second, the writer's primary job is as a statistician, and he has a second job playing gigs around Vancouver. I saw no ads on his blog. What he is saying there makes him no money. Further, what he is saying is fairly similar to what I have said in the past in here, and it should be obvious that I make no money posting here. So, perhaps you could reevaluate your position on why people make comments like that.
Third, he actually put up a second post (link below) explaining what he meant, and acknowledged it was insufficiently clear in the first post. Again, perhaps you could reevaluate your take on his position in light of that post.
https://crommunist.com/2014/04/08/a-second-look-at-white-people-on-offence/
How did he make money? Did you donate something?
Why do you find that comical? Is the notion that a black person experience racism more than you funny in some way?
Why do you find this paragraph funny? Are you saying that racism is not real? That white people don't typically exhibit that self-regard in such conversations? Do you see the remarkable irony in putting that into the same post where you claim the author is scamming money, even though by all evidence he does not earn a cent for this writing?
If we ever disagree about the proper way to conduct a dental procedure, you should assume you are right, and I am "dumb" (actually, inexperience and arrogant) for disagreeing with you, unless I can pull out a boatload of evidence. If you did not, I would question your competence. If we ever disagree about how to set up database structures, I will likely think I am right and you are dumb" (actually, inexperience and arrogant) for not agreeing with me, unless you can pull out a boatload of evidence. Black people deal with racism every day. White people do not. The side with experience is the side that needs to be listened to.
The author did not use the word "dumb", nor "stupid". He used "no experience" and "ignorance". They are not the same thing. If you can get get your emotions out of the way of your brain, perhaps you could respond to what he actually said.
As I mentioned above, while there are certain commonalities to being members of an outgroup, every outgroup also has peculiarities in its treatment. Women are not more likely to be imprisoned, black/gay/trans people are. Gay/trans people has religious opprobrium thrown their way, while black/latino people are followed around by store detectives and subjected to stop-and-frisk. White people can experience discrimination, but they do not experience racism; black people experience discrimination, but most do not experience homophobia. This means there is a limit to what white women, homosexuals, trans, etc. have to say on the issue.
I worked in a cultured marble and bathtub company in highschool/college. There was a Tongan man who ran the place, a true ******* who was the perfect match to the owner's own special brand of assishness (Utah County LDS business owners are notorious for treating employees like filth, and this guy was one of those type of dirtbags). Anyway, this guy hired a lot of Tongans into the higher paying positions, gave them raises, and the best portion of the annual profit "sharing" bonuses while taking his fair share of the white boys' bonuses.
I was a dumb young kid with all the heightened sense of morality that dumb young kids hold, so I wrote a letter to the Vice Chair expressing my discontent with the sitch. Now, being an a-hole company as it were, who do you think this 20 million dollar company had address my concerns? HR? No. I had a sit down and coming to talk with the Head Tongan in charge and that's where it ended. Kind of strange way to address racism charges, especially with a minor. The segregation was so obvious that only a fool would plead innocent to those charges... Anyway 2.0, being an a-hole to employees and hiring people like that guy is sure to cost you. My best friend and I trashed upwards of $30,000 in product over a two week span, and Head Tongan ended up getting busted stealing over $250k worth of product. And that was all they could prove after becoming suspicious and installing cameras. On top of that, they hired 24/7 security which added to the costs in perpetuity.
That experience didn't harm me one bit because I had a strong support system in place to help me along in life (both family and society at large). That's the difference and what I see as the bigger problem than racism in this day and age. Strong support systems overcome any racism, as has been shown in groups of immigrants from
Ireland to Nigeria (25% of Nigerian-American families make over $100,000 btw).
/ramble
What the hell is this crap? I rarely, if ever, pull the race card -- and if I do, it is usually in defense of a white person, FFS! Does your stupidity have zero limit? I'm beginning to wonder.