On telling someone who the "real racist" is

[One Brow]

You are just pounding the table with the worst of the liberals:

I'm just pointing out that ignorant people with loud voices are still ignorant.

 

[One Brow]

First of all we have a disagreement about what racism is.

Agreed. That's not a good reason to use a straw man of may claims.

Secondly I will sometimes use your off base (imo) arguments back on you because at times it appears to me you like to present arguments but don't seem to feel they apply to you.

I've said many times that the cognitive shortcuts that lead to racism are used by all humans, including me. I don't think I'm super-human.

I'm 99% sure I understand your arguments.

That statement is difficult to square with your prior statement.

Do you understand my arguments?

I'm not going to pretend this is perfect, but I will attempt a summary. Your position is approximately that people are only seeing racism because they are looking for it, and if you don't look for racism, and just try to treat everyone the same, racism won't have a major impact your life.

While it appears you softened your stance ever so slightly, we are still in different places on this. You still seem to be marginalizing with statements like "Occasionally white people get a small taste of racism".

That's all I've ever seen. I'm still waiting for you to produce an example otherwise; you did not offer such an example in your post.

So just focusing on the U.S., many pockets of population have the ingredients for this to happen.
I have lived in various places and specifically my time in Cali was educational. There was quite the mix of races and cultures where I lived. There was quite the mix of zero racism between races and groups depending on the people, as well as racism and fighting depending on the people. Most of the "racism" that went on was related to gangs, illegal activity, and violence. There were gangs that were limited to race fighting with gangs of another race. The police would target suspected gang members in attempts to reduce and/or limit some of the stuff going on which meant they would stop or pull over some races more than others. A lot of it had to do with the look of the individual, the cars they drove, the signs or tells that said they were a gang member. Most of the time the reason for the stop was not race, but the race card was still pulled. The white gang members would get the same treatment.

Your claim that the white gang members got the same treatment is false on the evidence; every study I've heard of notes that black people pulled over for the same issues get harsher penalties at every stage of the process. Further, you did not provide what I asked for, which was a place where racism is usually directed at white people.

I'm sure out there in the US there are plenty of times Police pull people over because of race, but I think it's way overstated. I still think the bulk of reasons for pulling someone other has to do with all of the other tells of these people basically shouting "I'm up to no good" based on how they dress, what they drive, certain gang related tattoos, and other habits. The police would be stupid if they didn't pick up on the tells and signs that said they should stop someone... as long as they are following the law and procedures in doing so.

It's naive to think a person's race doesn't play into these quick evaluations of tells by police officers, especially given the evidence that they do. This naivete comes easily for you, because you don't experience the other side of the coin.

You show your methods in your posting. You bring it up and point it out. You say this drawing attention to what you see as "racist" will help and that it is educational and gets people to think about it. I say it gets people to think about it all right, but does not help. It's like when you are driving a car, you go where you look for the most part... if you are looking at racism that is where you will "drive". If you are treating all people as humans and people and equals and that is where you are looking, that is where you will "drive".

If you are looking for jaguars in the trees, you will walk under them and they will attack you. If you don't look for jaguars, you will never walk under one.

No, I just don't see how that logic works. I understand it, but it's not a good depiction of reality.

If you talk about something and repeatedly have to "correct" people about what you meant when you said it maybe you should think about the actual message you are presenting when you say what you say and post what you post.

When people are comfortable with how they have reality divided up and boxed off, it can take extra effort to get them to realize that their boxing system is flawed and their divisions don't reflect what is underneath. So, I expect such attempts will be necessary.

Oh, then go ahead and think poorly of me for my parodies and mocking of arguments of yours I find hypocritical because they apply to others and not you.

See, this would another example of the box not working. You think of people who are tying to make changes as those who think of themselves as superior or more capable, so despite my repeatedly, over and over, saying that I'm just as vulnerable to racist tendencies as anyone else, you put me into your box of "doesn't think it applies to him". Otherwise, your world doesn't make sense to you.

I prefer that angle to name calling although I'm not sure which is worse.

I don't mind being parodied. I don't mind being called names. I hate having my arguments misrepresented.

-- disclaimer -- Just keep in mind it's all about my own entertainment, it only has to be funny to me. Not necessary to be funny to you or anyone else.

If it was all about you, why share it? I think you are kidding yourself there.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You are One Browing again. You say what your take is, but then you other words and explanations don't mesh.

I only did what you do to me all the time, take your position and extrapolate it out to the logical next step or steps, then agree or disagree with you. If you use the same tactic on what I say you should be able to accept the same on you.

It's hard to have a meaningful conversation when we have different views on what racism is, and the data about racism.

Your black panther(jaguar) joke/argument is a straw man argument if you claim mine as the same. Completely different points.

I'm not going to tell you the town in Cali I lived in. You have your agenda, telling you a place will make no difference to you, nor will telling you multiple places, nor is it relevant to the points I brought up.

You didn't like being "parodied" a few posts back, but now you say you don't mind.

Like a record baby round round round. I'm not sure why I responded to you in the first place, I knew how it was going to go. I guess I just find things annoying about your approach, wording, condescension, and all around attitude that I tend to be a mirror and reflect it right back at you. My approach to your posts does not lead to meaningful discussion with you, but then again I haven't honestly seen anyone ever have meaningful conversation with you.

btw, I give you a D- on your summary of my argument. If my summary of yours earns the same or an F, it makes complete sense why we get nowhere when we "talk".

I don't think of people trying to make changes as thinking they are superior to other people. I think you think you are superior to other people. You consistently claim this is not true but it bleeds out in all you post. "Actions" speak louder than words. Same can be said of me when I'm "talking" to you, I seem to automatically turn more pompous. I'm a competitive person, I generally match what others dish. Not always the best trait.

 

[One Brow]

You are One Browing again. You say what your take is, but then you other words and explanations don't mesh.

Could you be more specific? When I couldn't see how your views were fitting together, I listed three things you said and explained why I had an issue with it.

I only did what you do to me all the time, take your position and extrapolate it out to the logical next step or steps, then agree or disagree with you. If you use the same tactic on what I say you should be able to accept the same on you.

The notion that 'only white people can be racists' is contrary to my position that racists beliefs are common to all humans. It would be illogical to accept both at the same time. The former can not be the result of the latter.

Also, when I take your position to another step, I try, or at least should try (I hope you will call me out it I do not) to show why it is the next logical step. When I do not, I am being unreasonable (and again, you should call me out for that).

It's hard to have a meaningful conversation when we have different views on what racism is, and the data about racism.

I am unaware of any data you have brought into this discussion. As far as I know, your view of the data is that the data is not relevant. For example, here a summary of a paper I saw just today:

https://www.nextions.com/wp-content/files_mf/13972237592014040114WritteninBlackandWhiteYPS.pdf

My guess is that you will find a way to discount or dismiss the findings.

Your black panther(jaguar) joke/argument is a straw man argument if you claim mine as the same. Completely different points.

Could you be more specific?

I'm not going to tell you the town in Cali I lived in. You have your agenda, telling you a place will make no difference to you, nor will telling you multiple places, nor is it relevant to the points I brought up.

I didn't ask you to tell me the town. I asked for an example of racism against white people, and regardless of what town it was, the example you offered didn't contain an example of racism directed toward white people (in fact, in your example, you claimed the police acted with no racial bias at all).

You didn't like being "parodied" a few posts back, but now you say you don't mind.

My actual words:

You know very well that I don't say anything like that; I have explained it to you many times. Your sad parody diminishes the intelligent poster you can occasionally be.

It's one thing to not buy into my argument. It's another entirely to pretend I'm making a completely different argument, and then parody the strawman.

As I said, I don't object to the parody, but to the misrepresentation.

My approach to your posts does not lead to meaningful discussion with you, but then again I haven't honestly seen anyone ever have meaningful conversation with you.

From your typical position, that would mean you're not looking for meaningful discussions of my position.

btw, I give you a D- on your summary of my argument.

OK. I'm open to correction, and will try harder to understand it. What did I get wrong?

I think you think you are superior to other people. You consistently claim this is not true but it bleeds out in all you post. "Actions" speak louder than words. Same can be said of me when I'm "talking" to you, I seem to automatically turn more pompous. I'm a competitive person, I generally match what others dish. Not always the best trait.

I haven't noticed you being pompous in any particular way. Your posts on this topic read to me like your posts in other topics.

Just out of curiosity, how would you know the difference between a person who does not think he is superior, but speaks strongly on the issue of racism, and the person you picture me to be?