Orrin Hatch destroys Dan

[franklin]

The first quote had to do with church authority in the Utah Territory when separated from any nation, no?

Sorry for forgetting to respond to this.

I've made that distinction at times myself but don't see it as applicable here. These plucked sections were regarding governments in general and not directed at the territory as the rest of the document was.

The second quote seems to fit as opposition. It addresses "measures," to stop the accumulation of riches in the hands of a few, but a lot depends on what they mean by those "measures." Also Benson is anti-communism while recognizing that those who are in charge of communism ain't going to be redistributing their own wealth, so it could just be they are on the same side of the equation.

I've found James Madison's sentiment to generally be a respect for both property rights and protecting the poor from exploitation by the wealthy. We get overloaded with quotes regarding the former with nearly zero focus on the latter. It's my belief that early LDS thought was in line and focused largely on protecting against controlling levels of wealth while still respecting and promoting industriousness.

On a related note, the issue I have with the left today is their seeming desire to promote a wide base of lazy leeches & not outright opposition to them ant to help those in need through government programs.

Abraham Lincoln ain't a Mormon unless you count posthumously.

Yes but I found the quote to be in line with LDS sentiment from 1850-1900 or so. Also, LDS hold a reverence for the founding of America and also president Lincoln. Quotes from these people tend to ring true.


At the end of the day, you can always read the Book of Mormon which has a constant focus on the detriments and evils of inequality. It's not uncommon to hear staunch LDS members promote the exact opposite these days--wealth and statues are now written off as jobs creating programs.

 

[TroutBum]

Seriously, if all Mormons were like me, we'd really be going places. Thank Gordon I didn't go on a mission, or I might've started my world domination a lot earlier.

 

[PearlWatson]

I'm not sure why you quoted that last thing.

....He then went beyond the opinion I expressed and called me names ....So, I reported Thriller for calling me names in a malicious way. I'll do it again if he calls me names again. I like thriller less than any other poster who has ever posted here.

My "joke" was saying Trout was like Osama Bin Laden and appealing for sympathy for Trout based on that comparison. Yeah, not funny I guess.

I quoted it because it was what I was talking about. You recognize Thriller as a "malicious" bully because his behavior was directed at you, but can't see it when similar behavior is directed at someone else. I guess that is human nature, not just a weakness of yours, though.

 

[Gameface]

I quoted it because it was what I was talking about. You recognize Thriller as a "malicious" bully because his behavior was directed at you, but can't see it when similar behavior is directed at someone else. I guess that is human nature, not just a weakness of yours, though.

I like trout and think he's funny most of the time. I do see times when he bullies. I don't endorse the way he goes after people like Millsapa and BluesRocker. That stuff is on him and between him and them to work out.

Honestly, that was part of the joke.

 

[Fishsticks]

I always envisioned craig2112 as the poster child for Zionist Mormon.

 

[PearlWatson]

I've made that distinction at times myself but don't see it as applicable here. These plucked sections were regarding governments in general and not directed at the territory as the rest of the document was.

You say the plucked sections were regarding government in general but Brigham Young was church and territorial authority wrapped in one and his quote talks about kicking people out of the church and confiscating their crop if they do not pursue a "righteous course." Are you really trying to generalize that to mean the national government should confiscate property if "the rich" don't use it "righteously?"

If you do not pursue a righteous course, we will separate you from the Church. Is that all? No. If necessary we will take your grain from your bin and distribute it among the poor and needy, and they shall be fed and supplied with work, and you shall receive what your grain is worth.
--Brigham Young, 1855

I've found James Madison's sentiment to generally be a respect for both property rights and protecting the poor from exploitation by the wealthy. We get overloaded with quotes regarding the former with nearly zero focus on the latter. It's my belief that early LDS thought was in line and focused largely on protecting against controlling levels of wealth while still respecting and promoting industriousness.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "controlling levels of wealth" or if there was such a thing how it would be protected against. Do they recognize their own church assets and businesses as "controlling levels of wealth?"
I thought prosperity was always celebrated among the LDS as a means of charity; that if one sought the kingdom of God first...pay tithes and offerings...that it was fine to pursue what one wanted.

On a related note, the issue I have with the left today is their seeming desire to promote a wide base of lazy leeches & not outright opposition to them ant to help those in need through government programs.

That's how they pursue votes.

Yes but I found the quote to be in line with LDS sentiment from 1850-1900 or so. Also, LDS hold a reverence for the founding of America and also president Lincoln. Quotes from these people tend to ring true.
At the end of the day, you can always read the Book of Mormon which has a constant focus on the detriments and evils of inequality. It's not uncommon to hear staunch LDS members promote the exact opposite these days--wealth and statues are now written off as jobs creating programs.

That's pretty funny that they would love Lincoln when he considered their practice of polygamy to be comparable to slavery...most likely modern Mormons agree with him, though.

Do you have any specific BofM "detriments and evils of inequality" quotes?

I'm sure Mormons had different economic concerns in the 1800s than they did in Benson's time and their speeches reflected that, but that doesn't negate the genius of his speech on the Proper Role of Government.
I appreciate that you want to present the other side of the argument or challenge conservatives on the ideas, though.

 

[PearlWatson]

I like trout and think he's funny most of the time. I do see times when he bullies. I don't endorse the way he goes after people like Millsapa and BluesRocker. That stuff is on him and between him and them to work out.

Honestly, that was part of the joke.

It is making more sense now.

 

[franklin]

You say the plucked sections were regarding government in general but Brigham Young was church and territorial authority wrapped in one and his quote talks about kicking people out of the church and confiscating their crop if they do not pursue a "righteous course." Are you really trying to generalize that to mean the national government should confiscate property if "the rich" don't use it "righteously?"

Sorry, I got things mixed up a little. The quote I was thinking of is below. Read the entire original (OSC in 2008 Des News) if you'd like to understand babe's views on co-ops, unions, ground level stuff, etc.

I think your point about being in a territory is moot. He was speaking specifically to his LDS audience but also as a governor threatening to confiscate if necessary. It could be taken either way.

The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice. Under such a system, carefully maintained there could be no great aggregations of either real or personal property in the hands of a few; especially so while the laws, forbidding the taking of usury or interest for money or property loaned, continued in force.

One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals. The very liberties for which our fathers contended so steadfastly and courageously, and which they bequeathed to us as a priceless legacy, are endangered by the monstrous power which this accumulation of wealth gives to a few individuals and a few powerful corporations. By its seductive influence results are accomplished which, were it more equally distributed, would be impossible under our form of government. It threatens to give shape to the legislation, both State and National, of the entire country. If this evil should not be checked, and measures not taken to prevent the continued enormous growth of riches among the class already rich, and the painful increase of destitution and want among the poor, the nation is likely to be overtaken by disaster; for, according to history, such a tendency among nations once powerful was the sure precursor of ruin.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "controlling levels of wealth" or if there was such a thing how it would be protected against. Do they recognize their own church assets and businesses as "controlling levels of wealth?"
I thought prosperity was always celebrated among the LDS as a means of charity; that if one sought the kingdom of God first...pay tithes and offerings...that it was fine to pursue what one wanted.

What I mean by controlling levels of wealth is our currently bought and paid for legilslature, media, everything. We can also look at the prior model and think of The King's Forest. Nobody is free when a few barons and kings own everything and allow us to work their land under their terms. I'd love to be a libertarian, confortable knowing people can actually control against this through their own actions but reality is it is not the case. Libertarianism is just as much a false utopia as communism is.

That's pretty funny that they would love Lincoln when he considered their practice of polygamy to be comparable to slavery...most likely modern Mormons agree with him, though.

I don't know what they thought of him back then. I was speaking in a modern sense there. There's a quote out there which I can't recall exactly that praises Lincoln.

Do you have any specific BofM "detriments and evils of inequality" quotes?

Maybe Spazz, Colton, or Gibbs can chime in here. Trust me, it's a major theme.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Do you have any specific BofM "detriments and evils of inequality" quotes?

Maybe Spazz, Colton, or Gibbs can chime in here. Trust me, it's a major theme.

This is what came to mind, and remember I did not follow or read the whole conversation.

Book of Mormon
4Nephi
2."...There were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.
3. And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift."
7. And the Lord did prosper them exceedingly in the land; yea, insomuch that they did build cities again where there had been cities burned.
24. And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.
25. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.
26. And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.
35. And now it came to pass in this year, yea, in the two hundred and thirty and first year, there was a great division among the people.
42. And it came to pass that the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton.
46. And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic.


This is right before the two sides start fighting and it ends with the one group killing off the other group.

Not sure if this is what you were talking about, but it started with pride, and people seeking individual wealth and power while not sharing or caring for those without.

Yes is is a theme, or a cycle that tends to repeat itself.

 

[One Brow]

On a related note, the issue I have with the left today is their seeming desire to promote a wide base of lazy leeches & not outright opposition to them ant to help those in need through government programs.

Who do you see as the wide base of lazy leeches promoted by the left?

 

[Gameface]

Who do you see as the wide base of lazy leeches promoted by the left?

I sense an accusation of racism on it's way.

 

[franklin]

Who do you see as the wide base of lazy leeches promoted by the left?

The base. There's no reason to not fix social security other than laziness and the chronic, widespread democratic party members' desire to retire early and live off the work of others for decades. The excuses and rhetoric they throw around are all b.s. The underlying desire is to get theirs at the expense of others.

It's pretty sad when, as a party, you're fully comfortable doing everything imaginable to bankrupt the safety net that is necessary for those in need. But **** those who can't help themselves so we can all leech off the system for 30+ years, right?


(that's all rant and not directed at you at all, OB)

 

[PearlWatson]

Sorry, I got things mixed up a little. The quote I was thinking of is below. Read the entire original (OSC in 2008 Des News) if you'd like to understand babe's views on co-ops, unions, ground level stuff, etc.

I think your point about being in a territory is moot. He was speaking specifically to his LDS audience but also as a governor threatening to confiscate if necessary. It could be taken either way.

What I mean by controlling levels of wealth is our currently bought and paid for legilslature, media, everything. We can also look at the prior model and think of The King's Forest. Nobody is free when a few barons and kings own everything and allow us to work their land under their terms. I'd love to be a libertarian, confortable knowing people can actually control against this through their own actions but reality is it is not the case. Libertarianism is just as much a false utopia as communism is.

I don't know what they thought of him back then. I was speaking in a modern sense there. There's a quote out there which I can't recall exactly that praises Lincoln.

Maybe Spazz, Colton, or Gibbs can chime in here. Trust me, it's a major theme.

It took 10 minutes to figure out what OSC was...turned out to be a person.

I did recognize that Brigham was both church and "state" authority and so it would be hard to generalize that first quote.
It is more difficult to dismiss the quote from the economic proclamation, but I did look into the reasoning behind it...ZCMI & non-Mormon financial persecution.
So, Brigham and Co thought wealth in the hands of a few was dangerous and should be dealt with through government means. I suppose Benson would say that to confiscate their wealth (if this was the "measures" Brigham was talking about) would be legal plunder. The problem is Brigham didn't specify the "measures" in the economic proclamation and so this would only be an assumption on our parts. You don't specify the measures either besides trust busting in past conversations on hacks.

I need to clarify that I meant modern Mormons most likely agree with Lincoln's assessment of polygamy as the twin plague with slavery so they have no problem venerating the man.
This does bring up another point about Brigham. He was a polygamist, and Benson wasn't. Modern Mormons are going to go with the most current prophet dealing with more current concerns so of course they won't see a problem with the seeming reversal on the role of government in wealth redistribution.

 

[One Brow]

I sense an accusation of racism on it's way.

Why? Do you think franklin will identify a group by race, or one that has a racial imbalance? Was there such a group that first came to your mind?

 

[One Brow]

The base. There's no reason to not fix social security other than laziness and the chronic, widespread democratic party members' desire to retire early and live off the work of others for decades. The excuses and rhetoric they throw around are all b.s. The underlying desire is to get theirs at the expense of others.

I think one of the better, and easier, fixes is to raise the retirement age of social security by 5-7 years. However, I don't know if that would work for occupations such as mining. Is that what you had in mind?

Although, I don't think Republicans are any better as tackling the social security demographics.

 

[Gameface]

Why? Do you think franklin will identify a group by race, or one that has a racial imbalance? Was there such a group that first came to your mind?

Because you asked the question.

When someone talks about lazy people leaching off others does a certain race come to YOUR mind?

 

[One Brow]

Because you asked the question.

When someone talks about lazy people leaching off others does a certain race come to YOUR mind?

Nope. If I had assumed franklin was referring to a racial group, I would not have asked him who he meant. franklin rarely spouts off on those topics.

Now, between you, franklin, and I, which of us assumed a racial element was involved? Why?

 

[Gameface]

Nope. If I had assumed franklin was referring to a racial group, I would not have asked him who he meant. franklin rarely spouts off on those topics.

Now, between you, franklin, and I, which of us assumed a racial element was involved? Why?

You. I'm not sure why.

I'm trying to have fun with you here, man. Don't go getting all serious on me.

 

[fallenchicken]

This was never really race. The media just blew it up and Hatch just saw a fundraising opportunity.

 

[nightmare3983]

This was never really race. The media just blew it up and Hatch just saw a fundraising opportunity.

I get confused when out of the blue someone comes in and posts about the actual topic as opposed to whatever the thread has evolved into. But you're right, it obviously wasn't close.