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Paul Millsap is the 8th worst defender in the entire NBA

r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t said:
Fesenko's "net" contribution is atrocious:

https://www.82games.com/1011/1011UTA.HTM
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Yet his defense is stellar, at least according to the stats. And I would say his overall defensive presence is even greater, as his lane clogging ability helps everyone else.

yeah, he is a weak link on offense. Reminds me a bit of a guy whose jersey hangs in the rafters.

Also, the Jazz almost never tried to use him on offense. Generally at most he gets a pass in the high post for passing to someone else. Maybe if they had tried that more he would look a bit better in the stats. he showed some decent moves in the preseason, was give few of those opportunities in the regular season.

Will he ever be a force on offense? No, but he may be adequate, say 8-10 ppg if he got 30-35 minutes.

Finally, a big lane-clogging, man-to-man defending C can be quite an asset, anchoring the whole defensive effort. If he is used. But once again, I think our coaches are way way too concerned with running an efficient Sloan offense.
 
I won't question his heart, but the dude does get torched on a regular basis. He is 4 to 6 inches shorter than most pfs. But even the smaller David West took it to Mislap.

I think the jazz realize his deficencies and will be forced to make some difficult decisions. He won't like coming off the bench, but that is his best role. Will he be a pouting locker room problem, or an awesome 6th man? If he can't accept that 6th man role in Utah--give him a dose of reality like DWill got.....trade him.
 
Interesting how AK and Ronnie Brewer are 5th and 6th in the entire NBA on that list. If the Jazz want to rebuild, they'll have to be terrible for a few years. What better way to not win a championship than with freakishly horrible defense? Keep Sap and the rest out on the court while drafting studs to sit and ripen on the bench.
 
zman1527 said:
Yet his defense is stellar, at least according to the stats. And I would say his overall defensive presence is even greater, as his lane clogging ability helps everyone else.
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jefferson starting along with Favors to help on defense. millsap off the bench along with Fesenko to help on defense. this makes sense to me.
 
I think the obvious solution is to get rid of Millsap, Jefferson, and Okur and get us a REAL defensive big. I wonder if Detroit would bite if we packaged all three of them up with a bunch of picks for Ben Wallace?
 
twentytwo said:
I think the obvious solution is to get rid of Millsap, Jefferson, and Okur and get us a REAL defensive big. I wonder if Detroit would bite if we packaged all three of them up with a bunch of picks for Ben Wallace?
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Ben Wallace. That would be awesome. He might be the next Bismack Byambo. It is worth a shot.
 
r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t said:
i'm still waiting to see your stats.
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And Trout is still waiting to see his wang, neither likely to happen anytime soon.

I heard this on the radio yesterday and while some of them may have acted surprised I know from me watching the games I thought Millsap would be low but not that low on the list. Some games it reminded me a lil' of Harp or Booz where you could almost see the offense was specifically targeting whoever Millsap was guarding, his P&R D was surprisingly bad this year but other then that it seemed the effort was there (before he gets in foul trouble anyway) but he just doesn't have the height.
 
zman1527 said:
Well, that's what the stats say. How would you argue otherwise? Also team defense starts with individual defense. If one guy slacks, the other team will go that way and then the entire defense has to adjust to cover for the weak defender. Did the Jazz give up any open 3s this year because the wings were collapsing to cover for the weak interior D? Just wondering.
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The open 3s come from an ancient defensive philosophy of ALWAYS protecting the lane at the cost of an open 3, for starters. I don't know what period of basketball everyone on this ****ing site watches, but running a play to hit some big in the post so that he can methodically grind his man down and score doesn't happen very often because it's rarely effective and players of that mold don't exist as much as they used to. Millsap does suffer from his size disadvantage and also playing extensive minutes, sure, that is nothing new. But I could make just as much of a case that the perimeter D was so bad that it left Millsap with little he could do if he had to step over and sacrifice a potential drop-off pass.

Millsap hasn't been as good this year defensively, but you and rustbucket seem to believe that there IS a single metric that is the end-all of the most difficult measurement you can try to make in basketball (and by citing an article that STARTS from that premise!!!). The fact that you two seem to believe there is one way to measure the totality of a players defensive aptitude tells me that your opinions should be thrown in the trash. THAT is my point.
 
For the record, I think the way you maximize Millsap is by having him come off the bench and be insanely efficient for 26 minutes a night (roughly) and closing games depending on matchups and performance. Millsap knowing how much the team needed him on the floor because the team has been short-handed all year and having no one that knew the system as a big meant he had to be more strategic and less all-out as he used to be. I've always thought that and this year bore that out to some degree. I'd prefer the Jazz keep him since I KNOW he knows defense, can play it, and plays the game for the right reasons and the right way. Unlike many on this board who wildly swing between Boozer hating/Millsap boosting and Millsap hating/Jefferson worshipping, my opinion has not changed on he guy. He's a seriously good player, unique, and a great guy in a way that matters.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Millsap hasn't been as good this year defensively, but you and rustbucket seem to believe that there IS a single metric that is the end-all of the most difficult measurement you can try to make in basketball (and by citing an article that STARTS from that premise!!!). The fact that you two seem to believe there is one way to measure the totality of a players defensive aptitude tells me that your opinions should be thrown in the trash. THAT is my point.
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And YOUR point about our point is wildly exaggerated. Rust post some Locke article on stats that raises some interesting points that can be used for discussion. And that's all we did. We did not say we were taking a shotgun down to the jazz offices to make KOC trade sap for a bag of doritoes before sundown. Chill, dude.

The broader point is that the stats confirm, CONFIRM (not prove beyond any doubt or discussion), that Sap and AJ are very weak on D. Put the two together and you really have issues. Did we not see that this year?

And what are you trying to say, that Sap because he is so wonderful on O should be excused for being bottom 8 on D? If the Jazz go forward accepting that, we will not see any success in the playoffs for a long long time.
 
r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t said:
If Millsap's guy is torching him PER-wise, apparently he is neither stopping his own guy nor getting the help he needs to stop him.

Jefferson rates poorly too. So, who is going to be doing all the helping that Millsap needs? Favors, I guess. Or, Millsap could just come off the bench, matched up against scrubs that would likely be easier for him to defend.
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No he is helping the guy that just blew past Miles, Jefferson, or Harris. Thus his man is open and often scores. Locke, and you, don't understand defense is 90% team oriented.
 
NUMBERICA said:
You just did it again, dude.
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Did what? Did not agree with you? Sorry, hope it is not your first time.

I like Sap alot also. He should be our 6th man and get about 30 mpg to avoid wearing down. Depending on matchups, maybe he could play a little Sf, but his main role ought to be as our Big Baby, the backup PF.

That said, the stats show what we all saw: Sap and AJ stink as defenders, at least they did this year as a duo. Nevermore.

If you have some stats or a serious analysis that will indicate that Sap is actually at 6'6" a really great defender, please show them. He is just too small to be a good starting defensive PF.
 
Here's a stat, also from 82games.com:

Jazz give up 110.7 points per 100 possessions with Millsap on the floor, but 112.7 when he's off the floor. Locke's tip-off feature today similarly talks about how well Millsap shows with team defensive stats, rather than just individual defensive stats.
 
I think this whole "team defense" thing is being overrated. Guys should have a little more pride than that, if your man is consistently torching you, you should be pissed and do something to stop him.
 
Defensive stats are always going to be far more arguable than offensive stats. I happen to think PER allowed individually and effect on team defense per 100 possessions are two of the stats that tell the most. And being extreme on either one of them is cause for at least raised eyebrows. But the two have to be balanced, because NBA defense is always a balance between individual defense and help defense.

I will say that individual PER allowed is really hard to take as a single indicator, not least because defensive assignments switch on so many plays (I'd say between 25 and 40%, depending on the game). At the same time, to have Millsap rate so extremely low on individual PER defense is concerning. But I don't think team defense is irrelevant, and in Millsap's case I have to conclude it seems to at least balance out the apparent lack of individual defense.
 
The post shows an interesting statistic that strengthens the argument that I have been trying to make for a while: Paul Millsap is too small, especially playing next to Al for the Jazz to be contenders.

Look, defense (particularly interior defense) is what wins championships. And irregardless of how much heart Millsap displays on defense, at 6' 6.25" (official measurement) he is seriously undersized at his position. Size matters in defending paint, it always has and it always will. Size isn't everything, but it does make a big difference. It wouldn't be quite as bad if Millsap was playing alongside a big center, but alongside Big Al (who is actually a right-sized PF, not a center) the Jazz are very small in the paint and opposing teams pound the ball down low almost at will.
 
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