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Please don't sneeze - you may get me in trouble.

LogGrad98 said:
Serious question, is the teacher allowed to make rules that supersede the constitution? I have long since lost interest in this topic as a whole, but if the kid is to be believed then the teacher has created rules that negate the students' first amendment rights. Do they actually have the authority to do so?
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So should I tell my son he can stand up in math class tomorrow and give a speech about his rights regarding unreasonable search and seizure?

Should I tell him he has the right, whenever a person sneezes, to say "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun!"

When he's told to be quiet he should insist that he's just exercising his rights and that the teacher has no authority to silence him.

In short, yes, the teach has every right to establish classroom rules. Including limiting topics of discussion, phrases used, etc.

We all do understand that our right to free speech doesn't mean anyone has to provide us with a medium to express our views, right?

If this were a science class and the subject was evolution the teacher would not have to allow a student who doesn't believe in evolution to constantly stop the lessons to debate the merits of evolutionary science. The class is not a debate class and it is not the time or the place to try to solve the differences between evolutionists and creationists.
 
PearlWatson said:
Did your brain fall out while you were gone?

Punishing a student for saying "bless you" to a sneeze is ridiculously petty and was clearly rooted in the teacher's bigotry.

Maybe you just can't see it because you share the same bigotry?
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I'm sorry you think there is any value in your derogatory filled rhetoric. I find the way you've expressed yourself to be immature and counter productive.

HighlandHomie thinks I'm a Fox News drone because I ask him to stop calling cops pigs. You can think what you want because I don't want to have a conversation with someone who calls a teacher a bossy bigoted bitch.
 
Gameface said:
So should I tell my son he can stand up in math class tomorrow and give a speech about his rights regarding unreasonable search and seizure?

Should I tell him he has the right, whenever a person sneezes, to say "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun!"

When he's told to be quiet he should insist that he's just exercising his rights and that the teacher has no authority to silence him.

In short, yes, the teach has every right to establish classroom rules. Including limiting topics of discussion, phrases used, etc.

We all do understand that our right to free speech doesn't mean anyone has to provide us with a medium to express our views, right?

If this were a science class and the subject was evolution the teacher would not have to allow a student who doesn't believe in evolution to constantly stop the lessons to debate the merits of evolutionary science. The class is not a debate class and it is not the time or the place to try to solve the differences between evolutionists and creationists.
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So what is the limit then? Can a teacher restrict everything they damn well please? Seems to be a slippery slope to me, especially as being defended by someone who believes in individual rights. The hyperbolic examples you gave are FAR beyond saying "bless you" to a sneeze. Should I tell my kid to just shut up and never say a thing unless the teacher asks them to, to be seen and not heard, as my father-in-law who is stuck in the 50's always used to say?

And, as I stated, I have long since lost interest in this ACTUAL case and was asking a question in general. Where does the teacher's right to restrict speech in her/his class cross the line, or does it ever cross the line?

Do I have to invoke Godwin's Law?
 
LogGrad98 said:
So what is the limit then? Can a teacher restrict everything they damn well please? Seems to be a slippery slope to me, especially as being defended by someone who believes in individual rights. The hyperbolic examples you gave are FAR beyond saying "bless you" to a sneeze. Should I tell my kid to just shut up and never say a thing unless the teacher asks them to, to be seen and not heard, as my father-in-law who is stuck in the 50's always used to say?

And, as I stated, I have long since lost interest in this ACTUAL case and was asking a question in general. Where does the teacher's right to restrict speech in her/his class cross the line, or does it ever cross the line?

Do I have to invoke Godwin's Law?
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I think the only time a teacher would be crossing the line is if they used their classroom to promote a particular religious view or to actively discriminate against a particular view. I think it is entirely appropriate for a teacher to say that their classroom is not to be used to deliver religious messages to other students.
 
Gameface said:
I think the only time a teacher would be crossing the line is if they used their classroom to promote a particular religious view or to actively discriminate against a particular view. I think it is entirely appropriate for a teacher to say that their classroom is not to be used to deliver religious messages to other students.
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I guess then it is a matter of how you define certain things. What constitutes a religious "message", for example? I am sure that a religious person and an atheist have 2 very different views on that topic.
 
Gameface said:
So should I tell my son he can stand up in math class tomorrow and give a speech about his rights regarding unreasonable search and seizure?

Should I tell him he has the right, whenever a person sneezes, to say "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun!"

When he's told to be quiet he should insist that he's just exercising his rights and that the teacher has no authority to silence him.

In short, yes, the teach has every right to establish classroom rules. Including limiting topics of discussion, phrases used, etc.

We all do understand that our right to free speech doesn't mean anyone has to provide us with a medium to express our views, right?

If this were a science class and the subject was evolution the teacher would not have to allow a student who doesn't believe in evolution to constantly stop the lessons to debate the merits of evolutionary science. The class is not a debate class and it is not the time or the place to try to solve the differences between evolutionists and creationists.
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Gameface said:
I think the only time a teacher would be crossing the line is if they used their classroom to promote a particular religious view or to actively discriminate against a particular view. I think it is entirely appropriate for a teacher to say that their classroom is not to be used to deliver religious messages to other students.
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Your response to this is getting more and more ridiculous.

It wasn't a speech, it wasn't a discussion, it wasn't an expression of her views, she wasn't constantly interrupting the teacher (It was QUIET TIME!) and she wasn't delivering a message. She took a second to say bless you to a sneeze.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I guess then it is a matter of how you define certain things. What constitutes a religious "message", for example? I am sure that a religious person and an atheist have 2 very different views on that topic.
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I can be more clear and say that a teacher can tell the students it is quiet time and enforce that rule. I wouldn't see that as discrimination against any particular religious view.

Also, look at the other "banned" phrases in that class: "Dump," "Stupid," "My bad," "Hang out."

Despite PWs certainty that this teacher is a bigot could it be possible that this teacher is anal about the English language?

"Bless you" is not proper English.
 
Gameface said:
I can be more clear and say that a teacher can tell the students it is quiet time and enforce that rule. I wouldn't see that as discrimination against any particular religious view.

Also, look at the other "banned" phrases in that class: "Dump," "Stupid," "My bad," "Hang out."

Despite PWs certainty that this teacher is a bigot could it be possible that this teacher is anal about the English language?

"Bless you" is not proper English.
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Come on you are too intellectually honest to really buy that.
 
Gameface said:
I can be more clear and say that a teacher can tell the students it is quiet time and enforce that rule. I wouldn't see that as discrimination against any particular religious view.

Also, look at the other "banned" phrases in that class: "Dump," "Stupid," "My bad," "Hang out."

Despite PWs certainty that this teacher is a bigot could it be possible that this teacher is anal about the English language?

"Bless you" is not proper English.
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Candrew already tried to excuse the bitch with that reasoning. Too bad that went out the window when she opened her bigoted mouth during QUIET TIME.

A girl sitting right next me sneezed in class. I said “Bless You!” My teacher, (Name redacted by Editor) asked “Who said that?” I said “me.” She said “Why did you say that?” I said “Because it is courtesy.” She said “Says who?” I said “Says my pastor.” She said “Well we don’t say that in my class.”
I asked her why it was a big deal to her. She yelled at me and said “We will not have Godly speaking in my class!” That is when I stood up and said “My pastor said I have a constitutional right -1st amendment freedom of speech.” She said “Not in my class you don’t.”
I said “I will defend my religion.” She said “You will not in my class because I trump everyone.” Then another student stepped in and said “You don’t over trump God.” So she sent me to the office and the assistants principal said “if I didn’t want to respect my teachers rules then maybe My pastor should teach me because my freedom or speech and religion does not work at their school.
Then they sent me to ISS (in school suspension). After I left the class room all my class mates stood up and defended me the teacher had to call assistants principal to control the class.
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Looks like the bossy bitch is the one who caused the disruption during QUIET TIME!
 
LogGrad98 said:
Come on you are too intellectually honest to really buy that.
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I buy that as a possibility of why it was a banned phrase.

Why this particular girl got in trouble? I think it's because she had every intention of getting in trouble. I believe, as I said before, she had an agenda. She was counseled by her pastor that she had a constitutional right to say "bless you" and then, what do you know, she says it and gets in trouble. Mission accomplished.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Come on you are too intellectually honest to really buy that.
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I agree it's not about the English language. However, I've been on the receiving end of a few uses of "Bless you" meant as a put-down due to my lack of religion, and I can see it being on a board with "dumb" or "stupid" in that light. It's about not bullying people.

Was this girl bullying at this time? No. Was she punished or disciplined in any way? No.
 
Gameface said:
I buy that as a possibility of why it was a banned phrase.

Why this particular girl got in trouble? I think it's because she had every intention of getting in trouble. I believe, as I said before, she had an agenda. She was counseled by her pastor that she had a constitutional right to say "bless you" and then, what do you know, she says it and gets in trouble. Mission accomplished.
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The aspect you seem to refuse to consider is that maybe this teacher has a track record of being unnecessarily oppressive, which has been claimed by others in the case, and implied strongly by forbidding something that you must admit is really pretty innocuous ("bless you" as a response to a sneeze, which is so ingrained in some people as to be the equivalent of "how ya doin" in casual conversation...try answering someone with a serious response who casually asked you "how ya doin" to see what I mean). So a child (remember this is still a child) that feels unnecessarily oppressed would not be out of line to seek advice from a trusted adult in a position of authority (her pastor) about said oppression. Granted the child can then take it too far and try to shove that advice down the teacher's throat, but it could also be viewed as a defense mechanism if that teacher is actively trying to suppress something that matters to that child, which could easily and realistically be perceived as a threat. This is a real danger when freedom of religion is actively pursued as freedom "from" religion especially in an environment like that.
 
One Brow said:
Another take:

https://www.snopes.com/info/news/blessyou.asp

In particular:

"I want God to be able to be talked about in school. I want them to realize that God is in control and they're not."
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From the same arcticle:

Dyer County High School cannot specifically comment on the incident involving Kendra Turner and the "bless you" controversy due to privacy laws protecting her records. However, while Turner maintained that "bless you" was one of a number of frequently uttered phrases banned from classroom chatter so as not to disrupt the teacher's lesson, Garner asserted that the issue at hand was not religion but rather disruptive speaking.
Read more at https://www.snopes.com/info/news/blessyou.asp#2HRiZLcO6ypalTf6.99
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Do you really think the official rep of the school, in an official statement, is going to cop to it when the teacher behind closed doors was ranting about getting those "god-speakers" out of her classroom because she is sick and tired of their red-neck backwards "beliefs" that are so obviously ********?


edit: obviously I am not claiming the teacher did any such thing, but we don't know do we? We can't say one way or the other, but you better believe the school will spin this every bit as much as they are claiming the student did.
 
LogGrad98 said:
The aspect you seem to refuse to consider is that maybe this teacher has a track record of being unnecessarily oppressive, which has been claimed by others in the case, and implied strongly by forbidding something that you must admit is really pretty innocuous ("bless you" as a response to a sneeze, which is so ingrained in some people as to be the equivalent of "how ya doin" in casual conversation...try answering someone with a serious response who casually asked you "how ya doin" to see what I mean). So a child (remember this is still a child) that feels unnecessarily oppressed would not be out of line to seek advice from a trusted adult in a position of authority (her pastor) about said oppression. Granted the child can then take it too far and try to shove that advice down the teacher's throat, but it could also be viewed as a defense mechanism if that teacher is actively trying to suppress something that matters to that child, which could easily and realistically be perceived as a threat. This is a real danger when freedom of religion is actively pursued as freedom "from" religion especially in an environment like that.
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So is "bless you" an innocuous phrase with little religious meaning or a form of religious expression?

My opinion is that the phrase itself has pretty much no literal meaning and is used as a common expression detached from its religious origins. So banning it is not really an attack on Christianity.

I'd put this issue in the same boat as discounts for praying over your food. Stuff that isn't worth fighting over.
 
Gameface said:
So is "bless you" an innocuous phrase with little religious meaning or a form of religious expression?

My opinion is that the phrase itself has pretty much no literal meaning and is used as a common expression detached from its religious origins. So banning it is not really an attack on Christianity.

I'd put this issue in the same boat as discounts for praying over your food. Stuff that isn't worth fighting over.
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I can agree with this.

But you have to admit, for a teacher to specifically ban that phrase it sure looks like the teacher's intent is to specifically single out religion. There is really no good reason to ban it otherwise especially considering how you put it here, that it is an all-but-meaningless phrase that is really used as a social lubricant more than anything else. So why would the teacher single it out if not to take a jab at religion?
 
A vibe I am getting here from our atheist friends on the forum is that religious people obviously have agendas, but atheist people don't. Am I reading that wrong?
 
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