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Poverty, INC.

#bern said:
The Pearl is at the top of the list for sure. PKM, NAOS, Alt, and Siro all seem like they have a good grasp on it. Is that a good enough list for you?
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I'd add franklin, GVC and maybe Duck to that list as well.
 
dalamon said:
Hmm. I'll keep reading.



Firstly, it's a little apples-to-oranges to compare the slandering ability of "economic imperialism" to "socialism" or any sort of red-smearing that America has spent a century in participating in. The history of red-baiting is much more profound than any buzzword I could ever utter in these threads.

I don't think econ-imperialism is as nearly as much of a buzzword as something like "neoliberal" that some leftists are using to describe centrist Democrats around this year. I've never really considered it a buzzword at all-- to me it's the very real consequences of exerting power over vast regions through economic means, thanks to emerging globalization.


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I do get what you're saying though-- but in the spirit of parsimony sometimes those words u tend to run into are the best way to disclose an opinion on a subject without further elaboration.
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This thread has been an excellent read all around and you've made some great points. What I do not get is that you seem anti-NAFTA and for "fair trade", but you also pluck in contradictory buzzwords like economic imperialism.

I have never understood the side that claims America, with it's massive balance of trade deficit, lifting large swaths of the world out of poverty, exporting jobs that are much higher paying and safer than the local flavor, is economic imperialism.

These two concepts are contradictory and I wouldn't mind hearing an explanation. Fair trade is a cool idea in theory as it raises wages in poorer countries. I wouldn't mind implementing fair trade ideals here for migrant workers in exchange for lower welfare costs (we will pay the price whether at the grocery checkout line or in taxes). The obvious problem with fair trade abroad is that it will import jobs back into the US and thus take away from the lifestyles of some of the poorest areas. There is plenty of literature on US exporting jobs having a very positive effect. (and I am not even getting started on our increase from exporting jobs)

From an economic standpoint, exporting nations tend to fare the worst during recessions. The reason is rather obvious: when you rely on others for your jobs you have the most to lose. When you are the king of the hill their products get cheaper. America experienced this during The Great Depression. We were export dominant; Europe recovered much more quickly than we did because we relied on them. The opposite happened in 2008. America recovered much more quickly than the rest in part because they relied on us. A third example is Canada (coincidental, not because you are Canadian). There is a saying on Wall Street that when America sneezes Canada catches a cold. There are several variations to this saying.

Anyway, if I took you wrong or you have anything to add please do.
 
franklin said:
This thread has been an excellent read all around and you've made some great points. What I do not get is that you seem anti-NAFTA and for "fair trade", but you also pluck in contradictory buzzwords like economic imperialism.

I have never understood the side that claims America, with it's massive balance of trade deficit, lifting large swaths of the world out of poverty, exporting jobs that are much higher paying and safer than the local flavor, is economic imperialism.

These two concepts are contradictory and I wouldn't mind hearing an explanation. Fair trade is a cool idea in theory as it raises wages in poorer countries. I wouldn't mind implementing fair trade ideals here for migrant workers in exchange for lower welfare costs (we will pay the price whether at the grocery checkout line or in taxes). The obvious problem with fair trade abroad is that it will import jobs back into the US and thus take away from the lifestyles of some of the poorest areas. There is plenty of literature on US exporting jobs having a very positive effect. (and I am not even getting started on our increase from exporting jobs)

From an economic standpoint, exporting nations tend to fare the worst during recessions. The reason is rather obvious: when you rely on others for your jobs you have the most to lose. When you are the king of the hill their products get cheaper. America experienced this during The Great Depression. We were export dominant; Europe recovered much more quickly than we did because we relied on them. The opposite happened in 2008. America recovered much more quickly than the rest in part because they relied on us. A third example is Canada (coincidental, not because you are Canadian). There is a saying on Wall Street that when America sneezes Canada catches a cold. There are several variations to this saying.

Anyway, if I took you wrong or you have anything to add please do.
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The existence of this "economic imperialism" perspective makes sense when viewed in the larger leftist worldview. It relates to the leftist aversion to the spread of Western culture, and what is seen as its byproducts of capitalism and industrialization. One can trace its roots to the Enlightenment and the emergence of the myth of the noble savage, and all the way to the explosion into mainstream academia in the 20th century in response to the disaster of Western colonization. It eventually evolved into modern opposition to "cultural appropriation" and the efforts to preserve dying cultures and languages, and so forth.

What bothers me the most about the far left is the paradox of campaigning for human quality of life, while adopting a distinctly anti-human tone. I read a bunch of leftist blogs as there are many good thinkers who have a lot to say about the downsides of capitalism and development, and it is instructive to read informed opinions that you don't necessarily agree with. But when one ventures outside of the center-left focus on environmentalism and social justice, one finds him/herself in a muddy waters where people talk about humans' inherent incompatibility with the rest of nature, and the inevitable need for humans to stop procreating and allow themselves to go extinct. I used to debate with those people, but our perspectives are too far apart for a meaningful discussion. I stopped reading the comments section on those blogs.
 
Siro said:
The existence of this "economic imperialism" perspective makes sense when viewed in the larger leftist worldview. It relates to the leftist aversion to the spread of Western culture, and what is seen as its byproducts of capitalism and industrialization.
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I completely disagree with both your interpretation of the term as well as the notion that leftist perspective is anti-Western (from a leftist American perspective). I am no fan of the right continuously stating that the left wants a commie socialist welfare state. I don't believe any hard working American does.


Siro said:
What bothers me the most about the far left is the paradox of campaigning for human quality of life, while adopting a distinctly anti-human tone.
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That was the essence of my question. If you believe globalization has lifted billions out of poverty (I doubt anyone can make a convincing argument otherwise) then why bleed your heart out for Americans with economic imperialism while also seemingly being anti-free trade?

Again, I think I am misinterpreting dalamon but want to ask first.
 
franklin said:
I completely disagree with both your interpretation of the term as well as the notion that leftist perspective is anti-Western (from a leftist American perspective). I am no fan of the right continuously stating that the left wants a commie socialist welfare state. I don't believe any hard working American does.




That was the essence of my question. If you believe globalization has lifted billions out of poverty (I doubt anyone can make a convincing argument otherwise) then why bleed your heart out for Americans with economic imperialism while also seemingly being anti-free trade?

Again, I think I am misinterpreting dalamon but want to ask first.
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I'm generalizing of course, but I'm surprised you don't see it the same way. I mean, many on the left literally protest the teaching of Western Civilization at colleges, and many liberal institutions have done away with it completely. I thought the far left's distate for the West was a given. Much like the far right clinging to the opposite.

But I am talking about the far left intelligentsia, and not your average liberal.
 
Siro said:
I'm generalizing of course, but I'm surprised you don't see it the same way. I mean, many on the left literally protest the teaching of Western Civilization at colleges, and many liberal institutions have done away with it completely. I thought the far left's distate for the West was a given. Much like the far right clinging to the opposite.

But I am talking about the far left intelligentsia, and not your average liberal.
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Thanks. I was unaware of this and read a few articles. My main beef was with a the characterization of a different group, obviously.
 
Franklin deciding not to blast me in an Econ thread? Am I trippin?
 
I saw Bern's snide-*** remarks & I'll hopefully find the time to get to it l8r this week
 
dalamon said:
Franklin deciding not to blast me in an Econ thread? Am I trippin?
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You finally posted something econwise that made the brain turn. I understand if you don't care to expound or answer the question.

FTR I have posted relentlessly here your basic point but haven't seen any credit in that in our convos. Maybe I don't use big enough words IDK.
 
Just for a point of clarification - here in this thread, when using terms like "the left" and "leftist" is the reference point strictly the American left? Or is this meant to also encompass the European viewpoint?

The circles may overlap but I don't think they're concentric.
 
franklin said:
You finally posted something econwise that made the brain turn. I understand if you don't care to expound or answer the question.

FTR I have posted relentlessly here your basic point but haven't seen any credit in that in our convos. Maybe I don't use big enough words IDK.
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I got two parents in the hospital this week so the free time hasn't been massive.

I just enjoy that it seems you've dropped the bullying hatchet down. Say what you will about me arguably having one & chasing posters away sometimes, but the community is best if we all tone it down & encourage/respect each other
 
moevillini said:
Just for a point of clarification - here in this thread, when using terms like "the left" and "leftist" is the reference point strictly the American left? Or is this meant to also encompass the European viewpoint?

The circles may overlap but I don't think they're concentric.
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A damn good question. Leftist I would assume is anything left of the democratic platform for America.

In Canada it has a totally different definition.
 
dalamon said:
I got two parents in the hospital this week so the free time hasn't been massive.

I just enjoy that it seems you've dropped the bullying hatchet down. Say what you will about me arguably having one & chasing posters away sometimes, but the community is best if we all tone it down & encourage/respect each other
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Shoot I never saw this.

Hope everything is ok Dala. Prayer for your parents and your family. Much love man.
 
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