Public land issues

[one eye]

Ive discussed this issue on other forums but will bring it here to try and have a discussion on the topic and bring it to light in the eyes of more people.

In western states and especially Utah the idea of a public land transfer has arisen. The idea is transferring currently federal managed lands (BLM and Forest Service) to state ownership so the state can do with the lands what they want.

The state of Utah has already spent millions of tax dollars to study if they could even afford to manage these lands and without selling, heavily developing, and high oil profits they have proven they cannot afford to, yet continue to pursue it. They also set aside $2 million to sue the Feds if they didn't turn over the land by Dec. 2014, and they are now being urged to do so with a $14 million estimated cost on our tax dime on a lawsuit legal experts say they have no chance in.

https://fox13now.com/2015/12/09/uta...deral-government-for-control-of-public-lands/

I'm not here to hold up BLM and Forest Service management as great, but they are not the boogeyman this state has turned them into. The state of Utah has no chance at winning and absolutely can't manage these lands. Utahs state officials are as crooked as they come and names like Ken Ivory, Rob Bishop, Mike Noel, and Mike Lee send shivers down my spine. They are greedy and unintelligent individuals who have been given power to represent our state and have made us look like a joke, and continue to get re-elected by the sheep voter base in this state.

Is taking public lands out of the publics hands who already own it worth $20 million in tax dollars to you? Is losing Utahs great access to these lands and the beauty we have worth paying for to lose? If you hike, hunt, fish, bike, or enjoy our vast tracts of public land and wide open spaces or our beautiful mountains I suggest as voters and voices in this state we start standing against those that are for this transfer. It's time to stop voting for someone because they have an R next to their name.

 

[leftyjace]

It's time to stop voting for someone because they have an R next to their name.

Yep. Regardless of the rest, this is most definitely the case.

 

[Gameface]

I kind of liked the idea of Utah controlling its own land until I realized it would be used to hand out freebies to corrupt politician's buddies. It will not benefit the average Utahn, but will absolutely be a windfall for the Utah political-theological establishment.

 

[one eye]

I kind of liked the idea of Utah controlling its own land until I realized it would be used to hand out freebies to corrupt politician's buddies. It will not benefit the average Utahn, but will absolutely be a windfall for the Utah political-theological establishment.

I agree at face value it seemed like a good idea, then you get to the root of what they want out of it and it has nothing to do with better management of these lands, it has to do with selling and heavily developing them so our politicians and their friends can get rich and we are hung out to dry.

People in this state blindly vote republican and don't realize how bad they are getting screwed by keeping the backward politicians in office in this state that the rest of the country looks at and thinks, man is Utah stupid.

Let me just list off a few things your tax dollars have been spent on, and this on issues many of us don't even hear much about:

-$8 million for wolf lobbying
-Ask any other state who screwed up wolf delisting, they'll say Utah. The Utah legislature gave a few lobbyists money to delist the wolf. They went and ended up screwing everything up and now take credit for something they had nothing to do with.
-$2 million for sage grouse lobbying. Money well wasted for the few politicians and their friends that pocketed it.

-$2 million on land transfer study
-$500,000 on study of a suing the Feds for land transfer.
- now a proposed $14 million more to actually sue them.


Let me call out the politicians that have been fighting hardest for this stupid idea, and I would hope that you calls there bluff when they try to call themselves conservative with your money, and criticize the Feds for being bad fiscal managers when they are basically throwing tens of millions at nothing:

--Mike Lee, Rob Bishop, Gary Herbert,Mike Noel, Ken Ivory.

Those are the lovely politicians robbing Utahns blind, and Utahns are stupid enough to keep voting them in and going along with it.


Ken Ivory is a special case. He currently has a nonprofit called ALC for the transfer of public lands to the state. He has gathered donations from counties across Utah and a few other states promoting the transfer of these lands. Most counties in Utah gave $5,000 to $10,000 as a donation to his nonprofit. Washington and Kane county donated $25,000 each lay year of tax money to his nonprofit. If your county commissioner is making a donation to this cause I would be contacting them as well. Mr. Ivory gave he and his wife a nice salary of over 80% of all funds raised by his nonprofit which was over $100,000.

So before the sheep in this state continue blaming the Feds for locking up land, or straining state budgets, you better take a long hard look at those in office and those you vote for. They are throwing away millions upon millions just on these stupid causes, imagine how much they waste where we aren't looking.

The bottom line here is, you don't profit off of solving a problem. Our politicians and their friends profit much more off keeping problems and continuing to pay for reports and lobbying on them. Utah is not a well managed state, it is full of representatives pulling the wool over the sheep of Utahs eyes. As Utahns we are better than this, and need to start voting for individuals not party lines, because we are being robbed blind.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Case in point here was the John Swallow vs. whoever the Democratic candidate was in that AG race a few years ago. If you had looked in any way, shape, or form at the information of each candidate, you would have seen how much more qualified the Democratic candidate was. I recall thinking, how is Swallow even on the ballot? It was that lopsided.

Of course, all the "R" ticketers were enough to get Swallow elected, and Utah lost millions of dollars because of it.

 

[franklin]

I'm all in favor of the state buying up parcels and donating them to the feds to lock up. Why these crazy assed state's rights lunies want this state to become New York or California is beyond me. They've already completely ****ed the Wasatch Front, despite all the original state protections put in place by Brigham Young to prevent it from happening. Why let them destroy what's left of the state?

 

[one eye]

I'm all in favor of the state buying up parcels and donating them to the feds to lock up. Why these crazy assed state's rights lunies want this state to become New York or California is beyond me. They've already completely ****ed the Wasatch Front, despite all the original state protections put in place by Brigham Young to prevent it from happening. Why let them destroy what's left of the state?

Preserving our open space, wildlife, and wild lands does not require locking them up. This state though has proven it is more interested in economic value over any recreational or wild value the land has. For some reason people in Utah don't vote out the individuals who decide to develop, develop, develop in spite of all the damage it has done. The sad part is, most people love our mountains, love our wildlife, love our national parks, and live in an urban setting (Provo clear to Ogden) and don't understand that the majority of those they vote for that are republican are trying to destroy and take all of those things and turn them into cash for them and their friends. I get that we need economic development, but at some point as a society and as a human population we have to find the value in places that are untouched, that won't be developed, that won't be traded for worthless numbers in a bank account and be forever lost. Once land is developed or sold there is no going back. I am for wise energy development, wise housing development, and wise industry development. Tourism in Utah isn't driven by oil rigs scattered across the landscape, it isn't driven by the houses eating up what is left of the wasatch front winter range for wildlife, it isn't "no trespassing signs, it is the beauty of our landscape and the untouched essence of it. Even the ski industry in Utah needs to consider the surroundings and realize development will scar the reason many people come here for that reason. The wasatch front at some point has to find better paths of growth. The benches for wildlife winter range are gone, the wetlands of the GSL are being destroyed, and the agricultural land is going to be all but a memory soon. If you want to watch more development, less access, and more wasted tax dollars, this transfer idea is for you. If you value our states landscapes, wildlife, and access to our great public lands, then start voting those with this ideology out of office and stand against this.

 

[babe]

I kind of liked the idea of Utah controlling its own land until I realized it would be used to hand out freebies to corrupt politician's buddies. It will not benefit the average Utahn, but will absolutely be a windfall for the Utah political-theological establishment.

Convenient cop-out to principled, responsible living.

Bwaaaaaah. Let's abolish states because those Feds can be trusted better.

Yep.

That's the ticket.

Same and more to everyone who has posted in this thread so far.

Hillary, Bill, and the Bush clan never use office to line their pockets with the Sheeplrs' fleece, no sir, no way, no how.

 

[Siro]

Convenient cop-out to principled, responsible living.

Bwaaaaaah. Let's abolish states because those Feds can be trusted better.

Yep.

That's the ticket.

Same and more to everyone who has posted in this thread so far.

Hillary, Bill, and the Bush clan never use office to line their pockets with the Sheeplrs' fleece, no sir, no way, no how.

An automated response based on pre-programmed paradigms that disregards all the facts of this specific matter. Brought to you by someone who cannot believe humans are materialist automatons.

 

[Gameface]

Convenient cop-out to principled, responsible living.

Bwaaaaaah. Let's abolish states because those Feds can be trusted better.

Yep.

That's the ticket.

Same and more to everyone who has posted in this thread so far.

Hillary, Bill, and the Bush clan never use office to line their pockets with the Sheeplrs' fleece, no sir, no way, no how.

Umm, the Clintons? Are you trying to be silly on purpose? Do the Clintons have plans to use up wilderness in Utah fr profit in a way that makes it so that it can essentially never be wilderness again and so that it can't be used for other purposes again? There is a clear and present threat to those lands from this group of corrupt imbeciles.

You can thank the fact that Utah politics is run out of the church office building and that decent people cannot successfully run against the church's puppets.

 

[babe]

Umm, the Clintons? Are you trying to be silly on purpose? Do the Clintons have plans to use up wilderness in Utah fr profit in a way that makes it so that it can essentially never be wilderness again and so that it can't be used for other purposes again? There is a clear and present threat to those lands from this group of corrupt imbeciles.

You can thank the fact that Utah politics is run out of the church office building and that decent people cannot successfully run against the church's puppets.

If the problem is crooked politicians, the answer is holding them accountable, the more directly, the better.

The escalate- grand Staircase is a fair example I can speak clearly about. Bill Clinton, and Hillary , are what I term "Rockefeller Assets", referring to the most important influence that has made their political careers viable from the beginning.

A Dutch corporate competitor had invested in a huge coal project the Rockefellers wanted stopped. I knew some people on the inside. Clinton was told to lock it up, and he did. Another contact explained it "we can't let them have that coal". Another informed contact answered my assertion that the coal would be developed and used someday, when "the right people owned the project." By just smiling.
The Rockefellers are grand masters of the game of monopoly. When they really control the government, they will make it serve their interests, not yours.

A lot of little people just don't understand the game.

 

[Gameface]

The problem is crooked politicians backed and shielded by the LDS church. And that if these public lands are transferred they well be destroyed before anything can be done about it and holding the individuals accountable after the fact does nothing to restore destroyed wilderness.

 

[babe]

The problem is crooked politicians backed and shielded by the LDS church. And that if these public lands are transferred they well be destroyed before anything can be done about it and holding the individuals accountable after the fact does nothing to restore destroyed wilderness.

So your concern about land is fairly local.

In global terms I am looking at bigger players. In my view, the LDS Church has sought to align itself with the bigger players.
That means we actually agree in principle.

 

[Gameface]

So your concern about land is fairly local.

In global terms I am looking at bigger players. In my view, the LDS Church has sought to align itself with the bigger players.
That means we actually agree in principle.

I care about Utah's wilderness on a local very personal level. I'm not LDS but my ancestors (and my extended family) were(are). I was born here, my father was borne here, his parents were born here. This is my home. I don't want idiot, corrupt, slime balls ruining it. The feds are not an immediate threat. Our local slime balls are.

 

[Deleted member 848]

An automated response based on pre-programmed paradigms that disregards all the facts of this specific matter. Brought to you by someone who cannot believe humans are materialist automatons.

a total haymaker. lol.

 

[babe]

I care about Utah's wilderness on a local very personal level. I'm not LDS but my ancestors (and my extended family) were(are). I was born here, my father was borne here, his parents were born here. This is my home. I don't want idiot, corrupt, slime balls ruining it. The feds are not an immediate threat. Our local slime balls are.

So the meaningful difference between us is in the information base we accept.
I don't accept that Swallow or Ken Ivory represent official LDS authoiyies' interests at all. I know him, and I knoe central figures in LDS interests.

LDS power has largely gone with Rockefeller and London power brokers for a hundred years and counting. Key players are CFR-affiliated, the LDS are in the WCC and will track with the UN program as closely as they dare, hoping not to trigger "apostasy" in the membership.

Swallow and other ultra.conservatives are just fools whom LDS authorities mostly despise or loathe.

It makes a story line the liberals love though, and the Trib shamelessly plays that tune, though they attend the same insider CFR affiliated programs the LDS leaders attend.

I know Krn Ivory as an attorney who didn't care to really defend his client in a case involving a prominent LDS family dynasty, or take on a Vegas law firm he once worked for, a corrupt outfit associated with pro I ent deems. Yes, he knows how to work the ropes to spring BLM public lands loose to the right developers.

Ivory and Swallow are not above doing that, but they are not specifically aiding LDS interests so far as I know.

Well, unless Harry Reid is. . .

 

[babe]

An automated response based on pre-programmed paradigms that disregards all the facts of this specific matter. Brought to you by someone who cannot believe humans are materialist automatons.

You mean like conceited materialist dogmatists?

Who wouldn't even get the insult associated with devoutly believing a newspaper owned by Chase Bank?

 

[Siro]

You mean like conceited materialist dogmatists?

Who wouldn't even get the insult associated with devoutly believing a newspaper owned by Chase Bank?

Makes sense. Newspaper information should be instantly dismissed without a second thought. A couple of inbred dimwits barking about laughable conspiracies on Youtube? That demands hundreds of hours of serious contemplation.

 

[babe]

Makes sense. Newspaper information should be instantly dismissed without a second thought. A couple of inbred dimwits barking about laughable conspiracies on Youtube? That demands hundreds of hours of serious contemplation.

Yep. Instant dismissals are your style, not mine.
those Aussie conspiracists looked carefully at all the mainstream news footage, and noticed that the wood tables were overturned and smashed after the bomb had already exploded.

You wouldn't even look at the material.

I checked the original footage to make sure those Aussies did't alter the TV broadcast footage.

They did not, so the most obvious "conspiracy theory" at least proved untrue.

 

[Dr. Jones]

While we work the slather over crooked politicians, we still discuss a state that has the third most percentage of public lands in the United States.
Not suggesting that means we shouldn't care, but there is corruption everywhere, period. Can it be stopped? Nope, not really.

I would suggest Utah has done pretty damn good considering its peers.

Take a breath and be proud of what Utah HAS done.. then get back at the good fight.

I think it's atrociously silly that anyone makes this a R vs D thing. Totally dumb. Stick dems in office for the last 50 years and what do you think would be better today? How much less corruption? No Swallows? How do you know? It's just dumbassery.

Stick to facts not labels or you'll never accomplish ****.