Fine! I was baptized and saved.
Now I can go out rob, lie, steal, commit adultry and drink to my hearts content. I am already saved.
Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.
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Fine! I was baptized and saved.
Now I can go out rob, lie, steal, commit adultry and drink to my hearts content. I am already saved.
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
So then if a prophet makes a prophecy that doesn't come true, does that mean he/she is not a prophet?
Just curious, what have LDS prophets prophesied lately (and general/generic statements about the future and/or prophecies that cannot be found with some frequency elsewhere don't count)?
What are some specific prophecies made by LDS prophets since JS that have come to pass that are evidence of their prophetic calling?
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
Stoked, you know that's not what I'm saying. We must obey God's commands, but that is not what saves us.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
So God runs the the one and only true church the same way a Jr. Jazz coach doles out playing time? Seems legit.
Sorry, not following your analogy.
So basically Mormons place slightly more emphasis on works than your denomination. I get your point but I think you are dramatically over stating the difference. My sarcasm was meerly pointing that out.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry. You're a Jets fan so my fault for not speaking more clearly. Basically you make it sound like God is throwing **** against the wall and seeing what sticks in regards to who runs his church. Just found that opinion very strange, yet interesting.
Hebrews 12:15 "lest any man fail of the grace of God"
How can you fail the grace of God?
James 4:2 "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
So the proud do not get grace? Does this mean they have to do something, ie. be humble, to receive grace?
1 Peter 5:5 "God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."
2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
How can you "grow in grace"?
Matthew 19:16-22
When the rich man asks Christ "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life" he does not tell him only believe on me and be saved. He answers "keep the commandments".
When the clarifying question is asked "Which?" he is told not to murder, not to commit adultery, not to steal, not to bear false witness, to honour father and mother, and to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Then the rich man says he has done all those from his youth but "what lack I yet?"
His answer is to sell what he has and give to the poor, and "come and follow me".
Let me clarify my thoughts. When asked what was needed to be done to have eternal life the Lord answered with things to do.
What takes precedence here? What came straight from the mouth of the Lord, who is our judge... or something we think Paul was saying? If there is a contradiction in what we understand I side with the Lord, and what he says is very straightforward and clear.
What is also clear is that what "grace" means is not very clear from the references we have to go off of and the disputations that are among us.
How can you fail the grace of God?
James 4:2 "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
So the proud do not get grace? Does this mean they have to do something, ie. be humble, to receive grace?
1 Peter 5:5 "God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."
2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
How can you "grow in grace"?
Matthew 19:16-22
When the rich man asks Christ "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life" he does not tell him only believe on me and be saved. He answers "keep the commandments".
When the clarifying question is asked "Which?" he is told not to murder, not to commit adultery, not to steal, not to bear false witness, to honour father and mother, and to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Then the rich man says he has done all those from his youth but "what lack I yet?"
His answer is to sell what he has and give to the poor, and "come and follow me".
Let me clarify my thoughts. When asked what was needed to be done to have eternal life the Lord answered with things to do.
What takes precedence here? What came straight from the mouth of the Lord, who is our judge... or something we think Paul was saying? If there is a contradiction in what we understand I side with the Lord, and what he says is very straightforward and clear.
What is also clear is that what "grace" means is not very clear from the references we have to go off of and the disputations that are among us.
So basically an LDS view of what grace is and what other Christian denominations view grace as is the same.
Other Christian denominations say grace is a gift freely given...to those that come unto Christ.
The LDS Christian view is that you must come unto Christ to be saved.
Both views say the same thing, but the differences come from the idea of what it means to come unto Christ.
Does that sound right?
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
To answer your first question: yes. You can find that in Deuteronomy 18:20-22.
I'm too lazy to look up recent ones, but let's look at some that the original leaders had.
Brigham Young: "the only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." Pretty solid doctrine there.
Brigham Young: "The present struggle (Civil War) will not free the descendants of Ham who are slaves." Well...slaves were freed.
Orson Pratt: "God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County." We all know this never happened. I guess God broke His promise?
Heber Kimball: "Plurality of wives is a law established by God forever. It would be easier for the United States to build a tower to remove the sun as to remove polygamy." Again, solid doctrine from one of the leaders.
Brigham Young: "as the Lord lives we will build up Jackson County in this generation" This was in 1845. Safe to say that generation is passes.
Joseph Smith: "I prophesy in the name of the Lord god of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed ... in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left" This was in 1843. It's probably been a few years by now.
Joseph Fielding Smith: "Restrictions on blacks not getting the priesthood will not happen till the "far distant future" and "on some other world." This was said in 1958. Apparently 20 years is the far distant future, and a couple hundred years is soon.
Joseph Smith: "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations," I think all of us know that all nations were not involved in the war. So did Joseph Smith lie, or was God just wrong?
These are just a few. There's many more. Don't let the false teachings of men take away from God and His perfect message. He loves you and wants a personal relationship with you. It's not something you can earn, or purchase, it's a choice. A choice to follow or to rebel, those are the only two options. God loves you. Seek Him as He is seeking you at this very moment.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
What takes precedence?! All scripture is God breathed. It is ALL from the mouth of The Lord.
Not exactly, but I can see where your simple Ute mind would come up with that. IMO, He lets His chosen leaders run the Church. He's not just trying a bunch of random ideas to see what works. He just let's the leaders do what they do, unless they want to do something completely contradictory to His wants or He wants to install something new.
For example: when Joseph Smith went to find the "buried treasure", God didn't jump in and say "no way, dude". Instead, He let Joseph do it even though I'm sure God already knew the outcome. It wasn't against the nature of the Church or the gospel. Joseph was trying to get the Church out of debt, etc.
For some more modern examples. I view a few things as being direct revelation: giving the priesthood to all male members, lowering the missionary age requirements, and redesigning the temples in order to get into more places are just a couple. I also view a few things as leaders doing what they do: releasing the Proclamation on the Family and the Testimony of Christ are just two examples.
If you don't share that same view, that's okay. God will forgive you, and so will I.
Ok, then answer the questions. How can we have to do things to be saved, and not do things to be saved at the same time?
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
I'll answer it with another question: when Jesus said that, who had made the sacrifice for us yet? Why are we able to be saved through faith and grace? Because Jesus died for us. That doesn't mean we don't have to follow His commandments though, Jesus said "If you love me, follow my commandments".
To take more credence in one what part of the Bible says over another is folly. It is all from the same source.
There's a huge difference between saying you disagree with someone, and saying that that person/religion is not Christian. I'm fine with you saying you disagree with Catholicism. Or Mormonism, for that matter. But by any reasonable definition both Catholics and Mormons are still Christian.
By that logic, I'm pretty sure that Jesus also said "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." And "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
Anyway, you might be unaware that the LDS church also teaches that we are saved by grace. We are also judged by our works. And if your works are evil, Christ's grace won't save you.
Amen to that. That's why we're wondering why you're giving more credence to Paul's epistles than to James, Matthew, Revelation, etc.
You are avoiding. Do you have to keep the commandments to be saved, or not?
Really just trying to pin you down to understand where you are coming from, not trying to bash.
LogGrad98
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I like the faith side of the coin over the works side. It is a lower standard. If you are saved by faith alone and there is no requirement for any works, just those you feel like doing, that is a lot easier than holding yourself to a certain standard of behavior all the freaking time. Less to repent for. Less reason to feel guilty. Less stuff to worry about.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
I'll answer both of you here.
1) I'm not giving more credence to Paul, I'm using Paul as evidence for how people misuse James.
2) Do you have to keep the commandments to be saved? If you're asking if I have to be perfect, the answer is no. Keeping the commandments is evidence that we have faith in God, evidence that we are saved. Outward, physical evidence. A man can have good works but no faith, and is he just as lost as the man who has faith but no works. Why? Because it is impossible to have true faith without being compelled by the HS to do works!
If you see a man that claims to follow God, claims to have faith, but his life hasn't been changed, then he is just like the Pharisees. That is why James says that faith without works is dead! If you have true faith, your life is impacted in such a way that you cannot help but want to follow God's commandments. What a wonderful gift. That is why Paul says that our works don't earn us anything, because 1) you can't earn salvation, and 2) our good works are compelled by our salvation.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
Exactly who is saying this is how it goes? Is there anybody here saying that?