Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[RandyForRubio]

I've never said that I wouldn't be saved but for the grace of Christ. That was the purpose of the His life/death. But I have a very hard time with those that say "I'm saved because I accepted Christ" while they continue to live their life in a horrible fashion. One of the superintendents I work with is this way. He claims to be saved because he accepted Christ. Yet he steals, lies, takes the Lord's name in vain, does illegal drugs, etc. For the record, I know plenty of Mormons like this as well. How does this work with His teachings of "if Ye love me, obey my commandments" and "no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven"?
Honestly Hantlers, I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong. I have no interest in debating it. This is all my thoughts on this principle, based on what I've read in the scriptures and my own pondering of it. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm right. Maybe we're both wrong and some funky tribe in the middle of Africa has it right. In all honesty, I don't think any of us have a real understanding of what's going to happen and we'll all be surprised when we meet at the pearly gates.

I'm agreeing with you on that dude though. His works are evidence he doesn't have a true relationship with Christ.

 

[bigb]

I'm agreeing with you on that dude though. His works are evidence he doesn't have a true relationship with Christ.

I'd be willing to bet that we could get out of our own way, we'd agree more than we disagree about most things.

 

[b_line]

I'm agreeing with you on that dude though. His works are evidence he doesn't have a true relationship with Christ.

Earlier on in the thread you had invited a couple people to read some verses from the bible and pray about them to prove that Mormonism was not Christianity. Are you willing to do read the Book of Mormon and pray about its authenticity and truth?

 

[RandyForRubio]

Earlier on in the thread you had invited a couple people to read some verses from the bible and pray about them to prove that Mormonism was not Christianity. Are you willing to do read the Book of Mormon and pray about its authenticity and truth?

I'll be honest, I'm not. I know about Joseph Smith, and personally, I believe it's easily proven that he was a false prophet. I'm asking people to read the Bible, which they already should be doing as it is one of your religions holy books. You're asking me to read and pray about something that I view as heresy. There's a bit of a difference there. I mean, this is an outlandish example, but would you use a Ouiji board and pray that God speaks to you through it?

 

[Stoked]

Maybe we can agree that we're all lousy human beings trying the best we can to find truth. Which is the enjoyable thing about this thread, in spite of the inevitable conflict.

The part of your quote I bolded is something I heard many times in LDS church. This gets perpetuated in sacrament meetings and isn't the case for many. It's tantamount to a straw man argument - "they were offended" or "they want to sin" rather than they studied LDS church history and discovered unsavory truths there. Rather than look at the issues that so troubled this person, they smear the person's character and then blindly go to Sunday school. You don't deny that Mormonism is full of controversial historical issues (polygamy for one, polyandry as well. The Kinderhook plates, Book of Abraham, the list goes on). If you concede that mormonism does indeed have issues that can be labeled "controversial" then perhaps you could cut this truth seeker a little slack. Try be understanding of their struggle, rather than assuming something about their character.

From what I have found it is true. It would be nice to think that most people put such deep thought as the bolded into their decision. But then you go onto talk about "blindly going to Sunday School".

I agree that far to many Mormons, and thos of other faiths, do so out of habit and the need to fit in. But such shallow reasons also apply on the other side of the isle. Someone got offended by a fellow member, laziness and other reasons. I'm not assuming anything about their character any more than you are about those that attend.

My experiences and what I have found to be true are as valid as yours.

As for "controversial", absolutely there are and there are ex members, or those that investigated the church and decided not to join, that have done so after research, thought and prayer. Good for them for giving that decision the time it deserved. Unfortunatly most people are not that deep. And that is something that works both ways.

Keep in mind I am a 100% "inactive Mormon" and I will not be back anytime soon if ever.

 

[Stoked]

I'll be honest, I'm not. I know about Joseph Smith, and personally, I believe it's easily proven that he was a false prophet. I'm asking people to read the Bible, which they already should be doing as it is one of your religions holy books. You're asking me to read and pray about something that I view as heresy. There's a bit of a difference there. I mean, this is an outlandish example, but would you use a Ouiji board and pray that God speaks to you through it?

Hahahahaha, I need that. Thank you.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'll be honest, I'm not. I know about Joseph Smith, and personally, I believe it's easily proven that he was a false prophet. I'm asking people to read the Bible, which they already should be doing as it is one of your religions holy books. You're asking me to read and pray about something that I view as heresy. There's a bit of a difference there. I mean, this is an outlandish example, but would you use a Ouiji board and pray that God speaks to you through it?

The Jews in the day viewed Jesus as a heretic. Should they have reconsidered?

 

[RandyForRubio]

The Jews in the day viewed Jesus as a heretic. Should they have reconsidered?

Jesus fulfilled prophesy, Joseph Smith made false prophecy.

Please don't compare the two.

 

[LogGrad98]

*internet

Well played.

 

[LogGrad98]

Jesus fulfilled prophesy, Joseph Smith made false prophecy.

Please don't compare the two.

Again, not how the Jews viewed it. Were they right or wrong in so assuming?

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Some years ago I started gravitating towards becoming an agnostic, so this thread has been interesting to read considering I don't really have a dog in this fight. That being said, this thread will still go another 15+ pages without anybody changing anybody else's mind.

I'm sure it won't be a popular opinion, but 99% of the time, you're not going to change the views of somebody who's been groomed since birth (this goes for any belief system, not just Mormonism). Sure, each denomination will have its converts and it's members who break away, but religion's bread is buttered by like minded individuals marrying and then creating and raising other like minded individuals. Imagine a 35 year old LDS man who is married and a father of 4 who for some reason starts to get a little squeamish about reconciling with some of the things that came out of Joseph and Brigham's mouths, or some of their actions.

As they start to confront their doubt, they're faced with the daunting proposition of what could possibly lie ahead. Generations of family members who would be appalled, a spouse who might not share your doubt, completely turning your children's lives upside down, losses of friendships, etc. At that point, it's a lot easier to find the answers you want to find in an effort to stay put and embrace the status quo. I use LDS an example but it works for any denomination you want to attach it to. Again, I'm sure I'll get fried for the opinion but I honestly feel this is the truth in many cases. Not all cases, but many more than people would be comfortable admitting.

 

[[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]]

No, I try not to respond to alts with fake accents. I only read the first line of this post because you quoted me.

I'm still wait for the so called Mormons to answer my question. Why does Mormons invent lie that Jesus never plans succession to church? They really teach that Jesus is this stupid? Why they say this with no historical evidence in fact opposite is the case. This is almost like Scientology creating myth to attracks new member. Do they not know lies eventually turn on you? This why LDS members ship is on decline like Jehovas Witness.

 

[Stoked]

Some years ago I started gravitating towards becoming an agnostic, so this thread has been interesting to read considering I don't really have a dog in this fight. That being said, this thread will still go another 15+ pages without anybody changing anybody else's mind.

I'm sure it won't be a popular opinion, but 99% of the time, you're not going to change the views of somebody who's been groomed since birth (this goes for any belief system, not just Mormonism). Sure, each denomination will have its converts and it's members who break away, but religion's bread is buttered by like minded individuals marrying and then creating and raising other like minded individuals. Imagine a 35 year old LDS man who is married and a father of 4 who for some reason starts to get a little squeamish about reconciling with some of the things that came out of Joseph and Brigham's mouths, or some of their actions.

As they start to confront their doubt, they're faced with the daunting proposition of what could possibly lie ahead. Generations of family members who would be appalled, a spouse who might not share your doubt, completely turning your children's lives upside down, losses of friendships, etc. At that point, it's a lot easier to find the answers you want to find in an effort to stay put and embrace the status quo. I use LDS an example but it works for any denomination you want to attach it to. Again, I'm sure I'll get fried for the opinion but I honestly feel this is the truth in many cases. Not all cases, but many more than people would be comfortable admitting.

I absolutely agree that they way you are raised will color your opinions the rest of your life. I was raised to be a very acitve Mormon. Church on SUnday, FHE on Monday, Scouts on Wednesday, ward service 2 days a week, seminary Mon. - Fri. ... I am now 100% inactive but I can still tell that my upbringing of being completely immersed in the Mormon faith colors my view on things. On how I will react in certain situations.

It is that way for everyone. I do not expect anyones minds to change either but maybe a little smoothing of the opinions towards others religions (Howards recent comments about false prophets and heresy for example).

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

I absolutely agree that they way you are raised will color your opinions the rest of your life. I was raised to be a very acitve Mormon. Church on SUnday, FHE on Monday, Scouts on Wednesday, ward service 2 days a week, seminary Mon. - Fri. ... I am now 100% inactive but I can still tell that my upbringing of being completely immersed in the Mormon faith colors my view on things. On how I will react in certain situations.

It is that way for everyone. I do not expect anyones minds to change either but maybe a little smoothing of the opinions towards others religions (Howards recent comments about false prophets and heresy for example).

I'm totally on board with what your saying, but I'm going to defend Howard a little bit. If you've been told about the LDS faith and have looked into it, you either believe what Joseph was selling, or you don't. If you don't believe Joseph Smith or any of the men who succeeded him were prophets of God, then you pretty much have to believe they are/were heretics. There's really no middle ground there because if you don't think Joseph was a heretic, you should probably schedule your baptism appointment ASAP.

While Howard has been bluntly honest with his opinion, I think he's also tried to give his reasoning behind his beliefs. It's just that the truth he's arrived at isnt going to sound pleasant to those he disagrees with and vice versa.

 

[Stoked]

I'm totally on board with what your saying, but I'm going to defend Howard a little bit. If you've been told about the LDS faith and have looked into it, you either believe what Joseph was selling, or you don't. If you don't believe Joseph Smith or any of the men who succeeded him were prophets of God, then you pretty much have to believe they are/were heretics. There's really no middle ground there because if you don't think Joseph was a heretic, you should probably schedule your baptism appointment ASAP.

While Howard has been bluntly honest with his opinion, I think he's also tried to give his reasoning behind his beliefs. It's just that the truth he's arrived at isnt going to sound pleasant to those he disagrees with and vice versa.

I just used Howard use of "heresy" as an example and did not mean it as a personal attack.

I still think there is room for disagreement that doesn't drop you into the label of Mormons are heretics.

For example, I don't agree with Baptists (from what I have seen from their members and heard at their sermons in person) on every issue but I do not think they are heretics. Many good and wonderful people that are brought closer to Jesus by the Baptist denomination. They do a lot of good in this world.

There absolutely can be a middle ground. One does not have to equate disagreement with heresy. Heresy is extreme. I also do not agree with a Christian (I think Howard is 100% wrong here) not going to God to find the truth of something. That works both ways.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

I just used Howard use of "heresy" as an example and did not mean it as a personal attack.

I still think there is room for disagreement that doesn't drop you into the label of Mormons are heretics.

For example, I don't agree with Baptists (from what I have seen from their members and heard at their sermons in person) on every issue but I do not think they are heretics. Many good and wonderful people that are brought closer to Jesus by the Baptist denomination. They do a lot of good in this world.

There absolutely can be a middle ground. One does not have to equate disagreement with heresy. Heresy is extreme. I also do not agree with a Christian (I think Howard is 100% wrong here) not going to God to find the truth of something. That works both ways.

I also think people of different faiths can be good people, just as agnostics and atheists can be too. The bummer about bickering about religion is that there's really no wiggle room. Lets assume God and Jesus as we've been taught are 100% real. At that point, Howard and Colton can't both be right (just using those 2 as examples). Come judgement day, either Colton will be judged as a heretic for following the teachings of false prophets when there was evidence available for him to follow the true path to Christ, or Howard is a heretic for not following the teachings of Christ's true church which Joseph Smith restored.

 

[b_line]

I'll be honest, I'm not. I know about Joseph Smith, and personally, I believe it's easily proven that he was a false prophet. I'm asking people to read the Bible, which they already should be doing as it is one of your religions holy books. You're asking me to read and pray about something that I view as heresy. There's a bit of a difference there. I mean, this is an outlandish example, but would you use a Ouiji board and pray that God speaks to you through it?

I don't really care that you are not interested in reading the book of mormon or praying about it, or any number of other things involving mormonism. But the thing that causes me to lose respect for you in is that you are relying on what you have heard from others in your church and saying things about Joseph Smith that are obscure and not even accepted as his teachings or prophecy.

What kinds of things do you think didn't make the cut for the bible? Did Peter, James, John, Paul or anyone else say anything that has not come true? What about Noah getting drunk and having sex with what was probably his daughter? The only reason you are ok with these guys being prophets is because they lived 2000 years ago, and you don't know what was said in their free time or what didn't make it to the bible.

I understand that you are not going to just become a mormon from an internet board, but you sound pretty ridiculous when you invite others to pray about something that you believe to be true, and yet you are not willing to honestly pursue the truth of their beliefs for yourself.

Say all you want about how you already know about Joseph Smith, but I would be willing to bet that you are relying on second hand hear-say to base your opinion on that. Christianity has always been about being guided by the spirit, and understanding for yourself, not relying on what other people have told you about a certain sect or person.

 

[Stoked]

I also think people of different faiths can be good people, just as agnostics and atheists can be too. The bummer about bickering about religion is that there's really no wiggle room. Lets assume God and Jesus as we've been taught are 100% real. At that point, Howard and Colton can't both be right (just using those 2 as examples). Come judgement day, either Colton will be judged as a heretic for following the teachings of false prophets when there was evidence available for him to follow the true path to Christ, or Howard is a heretic for not following the teachings of Christ's true church which Joseph Smith restored.

That is an awefully fatalistic approach that I do not agree with. I think the fact that Colton and Howard (assuming this is the case with them both) both sought truth and went to the Lord as best they know how will come into play.

Let us say that the Mormons are 100% wrong and Colton gets to the Pearly Gate. I think the fact that he sought truth and prayed to the Lord for guidance will absolutely come into play.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I don't really care that you are not interested in reading the book of mormon or praying about it, or any number of other things involving mormonism. But the thing that causes me to lose respect for you in is that you are relying on what you have heard from others in your church and saying things about Joseph Smith that are obscure and not even accepted as his teachings or prophecy.

What kinds of things do you think didn't make the cut for the bible? Did Peter, James, John, Paul or anyone else say anything that has not come true? What about Noah getting drunk and having sex with what was probably his daughter? The only reason you are ok with these guys being prophets is because they lived 2000 years ago, and you don't know what was said in their free time or what didn't make it to the bible.

I understand that you are not going to just become a mormon from an internet board, but you sound pretty ridiculous when you invite others to pray about something that you believe to be true, and yet you are not willing to honestly pursue the truth of their beliefs for yourself.

Say all you want about how you already know about Joseph Smith, but I would be willing to bet that you are relying on second hand hear-say to base your opinion on that. Christianity has always been about being guided by the spirit, and understanding for yourself, not relying on what other people have told you about a certain sect or person.

1) This isn't me relying on others. This is me doing my own research.

2) No, I do not believe that anything Peter, Paul, etc said in the Bible is false. The Bible teaches that it is the inerrant Word of God, and I believe that.

3) As has been discussed already, I'm not discussing a prophets moral life, but the prophecies they have made. The Bible could not be more clear on what it takes to be a true prophet sent from God.

4) I have outlined why I believe Joseph Smith to be false. I have written his, and many others false prophecies, doctrines and words. We have seen Joseph Smith say that he prophecied in the name of the Lord, and that prophecy did not come true. The only possible outcome one can get from that is that he is false. I have read Joseph Smith's own words, and they have proven to be false.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I don't really care that you are not interested in reading the book of mormon or praying about it, or any number of other things involving mormonism. But the thing that causes me to lose respect for you in is that you are relying on what you have heard from others in your church and saying things about Joseph Smith that are obscure and not even accepted as his teachings or prophecy.

What kinds of things do you think didn't make the cut for the bible? Did Peter, James, John, Paul or anyone else say anything that has not come true? What about Noah getting drunk and having sex with what was probably his daughter? The only reason you are ok with these guys being prophets is because they lived 2000 years ago, and you don't know what was said in their free time or what didn't make it to the bible.

I understand that you are not going to just become a mormon from an internet board, but you sound pretty ridiculous when you invite others to pray about something that you believe to be true, and yet you are not willing to honestly pursue the truth of their beliefs for yourself.

Say all you want about how you already know about Joseph Smith, but I would be willing to bet that you are relying on second hand hear-say to base your opinion on that. Christianity has always been about being guided by the spirit, and understanding for yourself, not relying on what other people have told you about a certain sect or person.

1) This isn't me relying on others. This is me doing my own research.

2) No, I do not believe that anything Peter, Paul, etc said in the Bible is false. The Bible teaches that it is the inerrant Word of God, and I believe that.

3) As has been discussed already, I'm not discussing a prophets moral life, but the prophecies they have made. The Bible could not be more clear on what it takes to be a true prophet sent from God.

4) I have outlined why I believe Joseph Smith to be false. I have written his, and many others false prophecies, doctrines and words. We have seen Joseph Smith say that he prophecied in the name of the Lord, and that prophecy did not come true. The only possible outcome one can get from that is that he is false. I have read Joseph Smith's own words, and they have proven to be false.