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Quit overrating the 12 pick. It sucks.

Exactly my point. IF you have the #1 pick, and someone offers you a player that is the #1 level or better, you take it.

Just like if you have #12, and someone offers you Barnes or Batum, you trade it. Even the #1 pick is no guarantee of success. Trading the #1 pick for a current All Pro is a better risk.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
Sounds more like a recipe for mediocrity to me. The reason the Wiggins trade made sense for Cleveland is that they needed to build a team around LBJ immediately, not because Love is worth more than Wiggins. There is a very, very good chance that Minnesota won that trade.

What I disagree with is your assertion that these offers (particularly Batum) are more valuable to Utah than the 12th pick, and I especially disagree with your assertion that that is the case because of the players who have previously been drafted at 12. I could give you a long list of players drafted 12 or later who would be more valuable to the Jazz than either Batum or Barnes, but that would be just as useless as your irrelevant "proof" that we should do the trades you propose.
 
Nothing makes the #12 pick so foreboding. I'd be saying the same thing if we had the #10 pick. Or the #11. Or the #12. What makes the #12 pick what it is, is the fact that WE OWN THE PICK.

I am a doctor because I am smarter than you and work harder than you. Thats how. Pretty simple stuff. Be smart and work hard and you too can be a doctor. I did that. you didn't.
What an *** you're turning out to be.
 
So, you take the risk that one if 14 will end up being an ok player (Burks). OR, you pay a little more and guarantee the pick becomes a starter. Easy choice. IF you can trade it for a player like Barnes or Batum, you do it. You don't think twice.
Batum won't start for this team. So your not trading it for a starter. Your trading it for a depth position and **** loads of money for 1 year. We better be getting not giving in that situation.
 
Exactly my point.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.

Probably shouldn't use the worse trade this season as your example. Trading for Love was a bad choice by Cleveland, I mean Lebron.

This team would be mired in mediocrity forever if they used this philosphy. If your logic is so sound why doesn't every team always trade their picks? You can always get a player that is decent for a pick that could be someone good. Swing for the fences with the pick and hope you get someone great. If they are a bust, oh well. You dont trade your pick for depth unless you are a contending team. We can fill depth in FA if needed.
 
Exactly my point. IF you have the #1 pick, and someone offers you a player that is the #1 level or better, you take it.

Just like if you have #12, and someone offers you Barnes or Batum, you trade it. Even the #1 pick is no guarantee of success. Trading the #1 pick for a current All Pro is a better risk.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
Could you come up with a worse example to illustrate your point?
 
If someone offeres Barnes, or Batum for the #12 pick, DO IT. It's a no brainer. Look at your 12 picks:

Etan Thomas
Vladimir Radmanovic
Melvin Ely
Nick Collison
Robert Swift
Yaroslav Korolev
Hilton Armstrong
Thaddeus Young
Jason Thompson
Gerald Henderson
Xavier Henry
Alec Burks
Jeremy Lamb
Steven Adams
Dario Saric


Barnes and Batum are waaaaaaayyyyy better than anyone on this list. The only ones you'd consider NOT trading for those two players are Burks and Adams and Saric.

And thats probably most likely due to the fact that we haven't seen them play enough to realize that they aren't as good as Batum or Barnes.

The 12 pick is not an asset. If we keep the pick, he will most likely join Burke in the DLeague or in Europe in 3-4 years.

Quit over-rating this crap, garbage of a pick.

We got Gobert at 27. Nuff said.
 
The biggest value(production/$ paid) in an NBA market that is capped both for teams and individual players, comes from two main sources:

1. Super stars - because their salaries are capped and usually their contributions are much higher than the salary they are being paid.
2. Rookie contract outplaying their rookie salary. That's why draft picks are extremely valuable. A lot of them outplay their salary by year 3 of the contract. And most rookie contracts are small enough as to not be any type of a detriment to the team even if they bust.

Of course there are others that massively outplay their contract, but those are much more rare because the league usually has had time to evaluate them for at least 4 years(their rookie contract) before they receive their next deal and it usually doesn't miss on great talents past their rookie contracts. Surprises with massive value gained with middling or low non-rookie contracts are rare and are usually triggered by injury concerns(i.e. Curry's contract, but now even if he was at max deal he'd still be a bargain).

This is why teams that have either superstars or great players on rookie contracts massively raise their level. Gaining value in those critical areas allows you to spend the rest of the salary cap in filling in the roster with players that usually would play at about their market value. For example, I would say Hayward and Favors play at about their market value.

Right now we have no super stars and we have 1 player on a rookie contract(Rudy) who is massively outplaying his contract. That's usually not enough.

For example, the Warriors right now have 1 superstar in Curry(arguably 2 if you include Bogut), 3 players in Klay, Green and Barnes that are massively outplaying their rookie contracts. That's why they can afford to pay 10-15 million each to several subs and have an all around great roster. And that's why they won't be able to keep all of their pieces once Green and Klay get max and the time comes for Barnes to get paid.

I hope you don't misunderstand this post to mean - picks are always better than an established player who will most likely play to his market value. I am not saying that. I am saying there are nuances in those considerations and all kinds of stuff factor into them - at what point of the development of the team we are, what is the make up of our current roster, are we at the point where we are set with our group and we are ready to contend, or do we need more young pieces who are likely to outplay their contract, what are reasonable expectations for our other young pieces, or even our non-rookie pieces(are they likely to outplay their contracts in the next several years), etc.

I personally wouldn't mind trading the pick for Barnes, I think he's probably better than what we can get at 12 but you also have to factor in his contract situation - he will have to get paid next year and would we be willing to do it. Keep in mind that this will be the year when everybody will have a ton of money and he will very likely get close to max money which would be about 23-24M. If we are unwilling to match any offer, is it worth trading a lottery pick for 1 year of him? Similar considerations with Batum(we might lose him for nothing in 1 year time)...

NBA common sense 101, explaining to the tards and trolls alike.
 
The biggest value(production/$ paid) in an NBA market that is capped both for teams and individual players, comes from two main sources:

1. Super stars - because their salaries are capped and usually their contributions are much higher than the salary they are being paid.
2. Rookie contract outplaying their rookie salary. That's why draft picks are extremely valuable. A lot of them outplay their salary by year 3 of the contract. And most rookie contracts are small enough as to not be any type of a detriment to the team even if they bust.
...

I think I'm closer to you than to Green on the larger point. But I do sometimes think that rookie contracts are overrated. While it's true that they're a low-risk asset for the team, in the majority of situations they also give relatively low returns (esp. in terms of contributions for contending). In other words, it's not just that NBA teams don't win with rookies, it's that they generally don't win by depending very much on rookie contracts generally.

There are exceptions, with GS, as you point out, probably being the best example, and so I don't want to overstate the case. But while you might get some wins from players over-performing rookie contracts, it's not a very reliable path to championship contention. Championship contenders need veterans (and thus veteran contracts), for the most part.

So of the following 10 teams I consider to have been championship contenders this year (if healthy), I counted 19 "contributors" on rookie contracts (out of approximately 90 total contributors -- assuming a 9 per team average). So their contributions aren't meaningless, but neither are they, in most cases, the key to building a winner. These were:

Atlanta: Schroeder
Chicago: Butler
GS: Green, Thompson, Barnes
Rockets: Jones, Montejunas
LA: Rivers
Memphis: (none)
OKC: Kanter, Waiters, Adams, Roberson
Portland: Lillard, McCollum, Leonard
Spurs: Leonard, Joseph
Washington: Beal, Porter

Of these 19, I'd say that only seven (Butler, Thompson, Barnes, Green, Lillard, K. Leonard, and Beal) greatly outperformed their contracts. In other words, it's not hard to imagine that the other 12 players' performances could have been close-to approximated by a team getting only moderately lucky with a veteran on a similar contract. (Notice also that all but one of those seven overperformers were not freshmen coming out, and half of those six spent at least three years in college.) So out of the 60 players drafted top 15 in the last four years who are still on rookie contracts, only 5 dramatically overperformed their contracts for contenders (if we went to the picks where Butler and Green were drafted, the ratio would look even worse).

Of course there are some others on rookie contracts that could have contributed to contenders if they had been on different teams, but that doesn't change fact the path to contention doesn't typically lie with hoarding rookie contracts and depending on players' overproduction off of those contracts. Golden State is the exception (like OKC was with its drafting "strategy"), not the rule.

With that said, I think those who have argued that the proposed price we'd have to pay for getting Barnes is too great for the marginal improvement we'd get over what we now possess have a good argument. (And I kind of like the options available at 12 this year -- though I wouldn't count on that player being a key push to our leap into contention, with perhaps a possible exception or two; I'd expect the payoff to come after the rookie contract in most cases) I wouldn't dislike Barnes for the Jazz, but the price may be too heavy. And with Batum, the marginal benefit/price ratio looks even worse.
 
@idiot, you are right that not many of them are huge parts of contenders, but even if they are not huge part, they are still immense positive value. My main point is that super stars and rookie contracts are usually the ones that are overwhelmingly positive value for teams and are very rarely huge detriment to their team(simply because the max for a rookie is limited to a very low number). Most of them especially in the first couple of years don't contribute in a major role, but in a ton of cases they provide value that you can almost never get with a similarly priced veteran(especially in their 3d and 4th year of the rookie contract). Even players like Hood or Ingles in their first year provide much more value than their ~1M dollar contracts. Not all of them are massive 'outperformers', but the hope is that the ones that are would turn from one form of 'outperformers'(underpaid rookies) into another form(superstars). You can already spot them from the ones you've listed.

With all that said, I absolutely agree that you cannot build a contender around rookies. You need stars that would outperform their contracts and give you not only relative value(production/$ spent) but also absolute value(pure production) and other solid starters that would contribute at about the level of their contract and would still give you good pure production. Over-performing rookies just give you the flexibility to surround them and the stars of the team with other solid pieces, that you couldn't get otherwise(wouldn't have the salary cap room to sign them). And that's why I said, there are a ton of considerations that need to be taken into account when deciding whether or not trading #12 for a known quality contributor is the best option at this current juncture of the team's development.
 
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think Malone was 13th.

we can land on a prize or land mine.

its a gamble. Thats how the draft works.

top 3 players can bust at any time too.
 
The posts above all sound like well reasoned arguments, but in reality did all of you guyz know that green is a doctor who is smarter and works harder than you?
 
The posts above all sound like well reasoned arguments, but in reality did all of you guyz know that green is a doctor who is smarter and works harder than you?

Sewing-Machine-Doctor-Canberra-Patchwork-Quilt-Shop-045.jpg
 
Are Barnes or Batum going to play Center for us, because paying them their salary would mean that we aren't signing a backup for Gobert and are just going to roll with Brock Motum. Ask yourself in there is a bigger difference between Batum and Burks as there is between Motum and Kaminsky? Drafting Kaminsky also allows us to sign Booker long term or even perhaps upgrade him. If we don't want to do that, we can upgrade the backup point.
 
The posts above all sound like well reasoned arguments, but in reality did all of you guyz know that green is a doctor who is smarter and works harder than you?

Did you guyz all know I'm an astronaut and I've walked on the moon like 20 times?
 
We got insanely lucky, bucking all statistical trends and were blessed to snag Gobert at 27. The stars aligned that one single day for us. Nuff said.

Fixed.
 
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