Racism and privilege

[Deleted member 848]

This is the post that spurred me to join the discussion

I absolutely disagree. focusing on race is the problem. only when it is truly irrelevant will it no longer be a problem.

This was in response to Jim's point about how we can't just assume that racial tensions are getting better-- and he's coming off of experience as a teacher.

You saying that you disagree, and think that this line of focusing as the problem is what I strongly disagree with.

 

[Stoked]

This is the post that spurred me to join the discussion





This was in response to Jim's point about how we can't just assume that racial tensions are getting better-- and he's coming off of experience as a teacher.

You saying that you disagree, and think that this line of focusing as the problem is what I strongly disagree with.

So I need to focus on the fact that some one is (insert race) instead of just seeing them as a person?

Me thinking "oh this person is (insert race) so I need to make sure to treat them right". Isn't a problem? If I do that it will always matter that they are a different race. Why can't I just see them as a person? That is the focusing on race that I am talking about. That is the goal we should be reaching for.

That has nothing to do with telling people to ignore their culture as Jimles suggests I am saying.

 

[Deleted member 848]

So I need to focus on the fact that some one is (insert race) instead of just seeing them as a person?

Not what I said, and you know that.

Me thinking "oh this person is (insert race) so I need to make sure to treat them right". Isn't a problem? If I do that it will always matter that they are a different race. Why can't I just see them as a person? That is the focusing on race that I am talking about. That is the goal we should be reaching for.

No, it isn't a problem. I think if you use a little imagination, you might realize that you can both treat certain races properly (while recognizing them as of a certain ethnicity), and arriving to the point where race means nothing-- at the same time. Your black and white treatment of the issue of racism is what I see as incorrect. But anywho.

That has nothing to do with telling people to ignore their culture as Jimles suggests I am saying.

So in all of what Jim said, what specific aspect did you 'completely disagree with'-- or caused you to say this:

All I can say is thank the dear Lord I don't view the world the way you do.

Viewing the world as still full of racism, and longing to address it, is a world view that I don't have trouble sharing. Why do you?

 

[JimLes]

So I need to focus on the fact that some one is (insert race) instead of just seeing them as a person?

Me thinking "oh this person is (insert race) so I need to make sure to treat them right". Isn't a problem? If I do that it will always matter that they are a different race. Why can't I just see them as a person?

Because I'm a black person, or a Muslim person, or a Jewish person, or a francophone person. Because you're trying to strip away an important part of me. Because you're denying institutionalized racism and historical trauma and pretending it didn't happen. You ARE saying you should ignore someone's culture, heritage, and at the end of the day, someone's person. What makes me a person is also my race, and religion, and culture, and language. Those are intrinsically related.

People aren't black because of the colour of their skin. They're black because of all of the above. That's why it's not as simple as passing for white if you're light-skinned enough.

 

[Stoked]

Not what I said, and you know that.



No, it isn't a problem. I think if you use a little imagination, you might realize that you can both treat certain races properly (while recognizing them as of a certain ethnicity), and arriving to the point where race means nothing-- at the same time. Your black and white treatment of the issue of racism is what I see as incorrect. But anywho.




So in all of what Jim said, what specific aspect did you 'completely disagree with'-- or caused you to say this:




Viewing the world as still full of racism, and longing to address it, is a world view that I don't have trouble sharing. Why do you?

To be honest it is a bunch of comments that he has made on various topics such as education and racism. My friend, I truly bear him no ill will, Jimles and I see things very different. That's healthy.

I don't hence me jumping in on every single racism thread. But you pounced on Jimles incorrect interpretation of my comment and haven't looked back.

 

[Stoked]

Because I'm a black person, or a Muslim person, or a Jewish person, or a francophone person. Because you're trying to strip away an important part of me. Because you're denying institutionalized racism and historical trauma and pretending it didn't happen. You ARE saying you should ignore someone's culture, heritage, and at the end of the day, someone's person. What makes me a person is also my race, and religion, and culture, and language. Those are intrinsically related.

People aren't black because of the colour of their skin. They're black because of all of the above. That's why it's not as simple as passing for white if you're light-skinned enough.

No I am not. You are choosing to interpret what I am saying that way. Because in your eyes I have to be saying that. For you, me saying something different is not even a posibility.

 

[Deleted member 848]

To be honest it is a bunch of comments that he has made on various topics such as education and racism. My friend, I truly bear him no ill will, Jimles and I see things very different. That's healthy.

I don't hence me jumping in on every single racism thread. But you pounced on Jimles incorrect interpretation of my comment and haven't looked back.

Nope. I pounced on your post specifically. I thought I delineated that very clearly.

But any who. I await your response to Jim's post now.

 

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So I need to focus on the fact that some one is (insert race) instead of just seeing them as a person?

Me thinking "oh this person is (insert race) so I need to make sure to treat them right". Isn't a problem? If I do that it will always matter that they are a different race. Why can't I just see them as a person? That is the focusing on race that I am talking about. That is the goal we should be reaching for.

That has nothing to do with telling people to ignore their culture as Jimles suggests I am saying.

Here's the problem. You, and the many others like you, assume that you perceive the "person" in some raw or natural state which isn't perverted by "race." That's not how perception works. Things/bodies are always cloaked in values of some kind. Moreover, the so-called ethical way of perceiving a person (which you seem to espouse here) that says "I assume we are EQUAL, and that any differences I encounter are YOUR OWN" is extremely problematic. It isn't a raw perception; it is a liberal perception.


Bump:

You don't get to the foundations of racism unless you call into question the tenets of liberalism itself. One Brow's very own convictions about INDIVIDUAL REPRESENTATION play their own roles in the furtherance of racist phenomena.

The only way out is via the dismantling of the "individual" as we currently frame it. Every other compromise will circle back to the reproduction of these (or very similar) contemporary conditions.

 

[UGLI baby]

I had black roommates in college.


£¥£ Retiring at 20,000 £¥£

Srsly guys. Let me know if you have any questions.


£¥£ Retiring at 20,000 £¥£

 

[Stoked]

Here's the problem. You, and the many others like you, assume that you perceive the "person" in some raw or natural state which isn't perverted by "race." That's not how perception works. Things/bodies are always cloaked in values of some kind. Moreover, the so-called ethical way of perceiving a person (which you seem to espouse here) that says "I assume we are EQUAL, and that any differences I encounter are YOUR OWN" is extremely problematic. It isn't a raw perception; it is a liberal perception.


Bump:

Go back to telling us about your personal life while denouncing ours.

 

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Go back to telling us about your personal life while denouncing ours.

See, I try to engage you in a real way and you fail. That's why I don't try very often. Nothing is worse than a dude who thinks he is unperverted by the trends of his time, and that his folksy common sense unlocks every important issue. And, if it doesn't, then it must be too esoteric to really matter cuz I gots my **** werked out fellas...

 

[JimLes]

No I am not. You are choosing to interpret what I am saying that way. Because in your eyes I have to be saying that. For you, me saying something different is not even a posibility.

Ok, fine. What are you saying then? What do you mean by "not talking about race?"

 

[Stoked]

See, I try to engage you in a real way and you fail. That's why I don't try very often. Nothing is worse than a dude who thinks he is unperverted by the trends of his time, and that his folksy common sense unlocks every important issue. And, if it doesn't, then it must be too esoteric to really matter cuz I gots my **** werked out fellas...

Are you truly being honest in your attempt to engage? If so my apologies and I will engage you as such in this thread. however my experience with this incarnation of you is that you do not do so.

 

[Stoked]

I absolutely disagree. focusing on race is the problem. only when it is truly irrelevant will it no longer be a problem.

Ok, fine. What are you saying then? What do you mean by "not talking about race?"

Lets start with this.

As shown by me including the quote of mine that you jumped on wrong from the start I never said that. As shown in this thread I am clearly willing to talk about it and think there is mountains of work to still do on eradicating racism.

I am saying that racism is only no longer a problem when it is unimportant to us in how we judge a man. Being black white, hispanic...while it certainly has affects on your culture which in turn has affects on your personality I should not be basing my jusgement of you based on your skin tone. Instead on your heart and actions.

 

[Stoked]

Here's the problem. You, and the many others like you, assume that you perceive the "person" in some raw or natural state which isn't perverted by "race." That's not how perception works. Things/bodies are always cloaked in values of some kind. Moreover, the so-called ethical way of perceiving a person (which you seem to espouse here) that says "I assume we are EQUAL, and that any differences I encounter are YOUR OWN" is extremely problematic. It isn't a raw perception; it is a liberal perception.


Bump:

You know nothing about me so please refrain form telling me how I am.

I fully acknowledge that race affects how people are viewed in a general sense. That is our current reality. G ranted with the notion that I do think that we are starting to see those who have moved passed that.

As for your statement of any differences are yours not mine. Well I see that as flawed logic. Either person in a two case scenario could say that. But the truth is that the differences are shared equally between the two.


You go on about "values of some kind" and so called ethical way of viewing a person...are you saying that we should not base our opinion of people based on their morals, actions and feelings? If not than what should we base it off of?

 

[JimLes]

I am saying that racism is only no longer a problem when it is unimportant to us in how we judge a man. Being black white, hispanic...while it certainly has affects on your culture which in turn has affects on your personality I should not be basing my jusgement of you based on your skin tone. Instead on your heart and actions.

There is a big different between basing judgements and treating people differently on account of race. Case in point, do you believe that Black History Month is a good or bad thing?

 

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Go back to telling us about your personal life while denouncing ours.

Are you truly being honest in your attempt to engage? If so my apologies and I will engage you as such in this thread. however my experience with this incarnation of you is that you do not do so.

What these posts demonstrate is that your opinion of me is MADE. and, that as a moderator you have judged my posts and will continue to judge my posts NOT BASED ON A RUNNING EVALUATION OF EACH POST, BUT BASED ON AN ESTABLISHED PERCEPTION. I for one find it pretty interesting that we've caught you doing this in a thread about racism/preJUDICE.

 

[Stoked]

What these posts demonstrate is that your opinion of me is MADE. and, that as a moderator you have judged my posts and will continue to judge my posts NOT BASED ON A RUNNING EVALUATION OF EACH POST, BUT BASED ON AN ESTABLISHED PERCEPTION. I for one find it pretty interesting that we've caught you doing this in a thread about racism/preJUDICE.

A perception that you yourself have created. Willingly. My posts also show that I am willing to rethink a post if shown honest intention. If you do not like the image of you that your actions are creating then perhaps change your actions? I am showing a willingness to rethink my impression of you as needed.

This instance has nothing to do with racism or prejudice as my opinion of you is an individual based on my own experiences with you. Nice attempt though.

 

[Stoked]

There is a big different between basing judgements and treating people differently on account of race. Case in point, do you believe that Black History Month is a good or bad thing?

I do not think Black History Month is a bad thing but I think it inadequately addreses the problem.

 

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You know nothing about me so please refrain form telling me how I am.

I fully acknowledge that race affects how people are viewed in a general sense. That is our current reality. G ranted with the notion that I do think that we are starting to see those who have moved passed that.

As for your statement of any differences are yours not mine. Well I see that as flawed logic. Either person in a two case scenario could say that. But the truth is that the differences are shared equally between the two.


You go on about "values of some kind" and so called ethical way of viewing a person...are you saying that we should not base our opinion of people based on their morals, actions and feelings? If not than what should we base it off of?

Everything you say here, if we place it in the context of this thread, seems to be in search of a method for ethically determining who someone IS. Then, maybe a ethical concern for WHAT TO DO WITH THAT REPRESENTATION OF THEM. Why not start out with the assumptions that we can NEVER know exactly what a person IS; that in their ineffable-ness, they share more in common with us than we can ever realize; and that their differences are important, so instead of clarifying those differences for the sake of judgment, we drive at understanding what makes them uniquely powerful in the world because of their difference.