Racism and privilege

[moevillini]

I think it's time we have a honest discussion about male privilege. This is a far bigger problem globally than white privilege.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I think it's time we have a honest discussion about male privilege. This is a far bigger problem globally than white privilege.

I don't think we should talk about it. Wouldn't want to exacerbate the problem after all.

 

[Gameface]

I think it's time we have a honest discussion about male privilege. This is a far bigger problem globally than white privilege.

I like things the way they are because it benefits me, Moe.

 

[ema]

I think it's time we have a honest discussion about male privilege. This is a far bigger problem globally than white privilege.

Kitchen is the other way, moe.

 

[moevillini]

I don't think we should talk about it. Wouldn't want to exacerbate the problem after all.

oooh, so you're into that kinky stuff? most people don't want to discuss exacerbation so openly...
:wink:


at any rate, it's perhaps more of an economic issue in this country, but in many parts of the world gender privilege becomes a health issue with extremely detrimental effects on women's health and safety.

and even in our presumably enlightened country, there are still situations where gender privilege leads to physical harm for women

 

[Jazz Spazz]

oooh, so you're into that kinky stuff? most people don't want to discuss exacerbation so openly...
:wink:


at any rate, it's perhaps more of an economic issue in this country, but in many parts of the world gender privilege becomes a health issue with extremely detrimental effects on women's health and safety.

and even in our presumably enlightened country, there are still situations where gender privilege leads to physical harm for women

Please tell me what you mean. Give examples.

 

[LogGrad98]

Please tell me what you mean. Give examples.

Of exacerbation?

Well, when a guy loves himself enough, and is alone, or generally any time at all...

 

[moevillini]

Of exacerbation?

Well, when a guy loves himself enough, and is alone, or generally any time at all...

Exactly! He exacerbates the situation until it gets out of hand and then he feels better.

 

[LogGrad98]

Exactly! He exacerbates the situation until it gets out of hand and then he feels better.

inappropriate thread material there

 

[♪alt13]

First off let me say that I agree with Bronco in that One Brow is being a total troll. I read 4 pages of this thread before the blah blah blah's set in.

The accusations of "race baiter" are a favorite tactic of people who want to continue to benefit from racial privilege, even if they hold no personal animus.

I do see the persistent effects of racism in our country(most notably in the criminal justice system) but racial privilege is a step too far. I say this not because I am a white male who wishes to maintain his racial privilege, but because I am a person who thinks that blaming someones troubles on someone else's good fortune is a form of victimization.

Rarely, accusations of racism can cause damage. Almost always, they are an inconvenience and a nuisance, forgotten in the next news cycle.

It is not about whether it is inconvenient or destructive. Racist is 1 step below being called a momo or a wrapper(trying to filter and get my point across{hard}) so don't throw it out there unless you're positive the person has earned the title.

Meanwhile, persistent privilege continues to ruin lives in multiple, subtle ways.

Rich kids have privileges I never had, but someone having more privilege than I in no way can ruin my life. There are disadvantages that racial minorities have to deal with that white people do not, but that is not a privilege. It is simply the lack of a hard ship.
i.e. Who is more privileged the black rich kid or the poor white one. The black child will have to deal with prejudice that the white child will not , but has the support to help him/her be successful in life.

I can appreciate that both of you, in a position of social privilege, wish to see great caution used regarding words/actions that could upset the social order. Those who have less to use don't see the need to be so cautious.

You are so full of yourself it makes me want to vomit. Your vocabulary does not make you right. It means you have a large vocabulary. stfu

 

[moevillini]

I'm not sure I really understand any of this, or at least the point of this thread.

If One Brow wants me to acknowledge that in the United States (and probably much of North American and Europe though I can't really say for sure since I've never really lived anywhere else) that people of color (minorities, non-whites, whatever term you prefer) encounter prejudice, biases and stereotypes that I (as a "white" person) do not encounter, yes definitely I acknowledge that. I do believe it, I do believe it's true.*

So if someone is going to consider that to imply that I have a special privilege that others may not have, so be it. I still don't understand just exactly what all the fuss is about here.


*bonus points if you can name that tune
**and extra bonus points if you understand how it is significant to this discussion, or at least pretend you understand

 

[franklin]

Exactly! He exacerbates the situation until it gets out of hand and then he feels better.

Repped whether you meant this as a pun within the innuendo or not.

 

[Gameface]

I'm not sure I really understand any of this, or at least the point of this thread.

If One Brow wants me to acknowledge that in the United States (and probably much of North American and Europe though I can't really say for sure since I've never really lived anywhere else) that people of color (minorities, non-whites, whatever term you prefer) encounter prejudice, biases and stereotypes that I (as a "white" person) do not encounter, yes definitely I acknowledge that. I do believe it, I do believe it's true.*

So if someone is going to consider that to imply that I have a special privilege that others may not have, so be it. I still don't understand just exactly what all the fuss is about here.


*bonus points if you can name that tune
**and extra bonus points if you understand how it is significant to this discussion, or at least pretend you understand

I don't know the name but I know it's Simon and Garfunkel.

EDIT: "At The Zoo"

 

[moevillini]

I don't know the name but I know it's Simon and Garfunkel.

EDIT: "At The Zoo"

yeppers!

something tells me it's all happening at the zoo - I do believe it, I do believe it's true...
the monkeys stand for honesty, giraffes are insincere - and the elephants are kindly but they're dumb.

(I think I have that right, but I'm not entirely sure of the lyrics)


and don't you know it's racist to refer to little children as little monkeys?

 

[One Brow]

You don't get to the foundations of racism unless you call into question the tenets of liberalism itself. One Brow's very own convictions about INDIVIDUAL REPRESENTATION play their own roles in the furtherance of racist phenomena.

The only way out is via the dismantling of the "individual" as we currently frame it. Every other compromise will circle back to the reproduction of these (or very similar) contemporary conditions.

By ' dismantling of the "individual"', do you mean view them as a part of some continuum of existence? Why would you think I did not adopt such a view?

Here's the problem. You, and the many others like you, assume that you perceive the "person" in some raw or natural state which isn't perverted by "race." That's not how perception works. Things/bodies are always cloaked in values of some kind. Moreover, the so-called ethical way of perceiving a person (which you seem to espouse here) that says "I assume we are EQUAL, and that any differences I encounter are YOUR OWN" is extremely problematic. It isn't a raw perception; it is a liberal perception.

I'm curious in what sense you are using the word "liberal" here. It doesn't seem to relate to any political or philosophical trend I have associated with the term.

What these posts demonstrate is that your opinion of me is MADE. and, that as a moderator you have judged my posts and will continue to judge my posts NOT BASED ON A RUNNING EVALUATION OF EACH POST, BUT BASED ON AN ESTABLISHED PERCEPTION. I for one find it pretty interesting that we've caught you doing this in a thread about racism/preJUDICE.

Naturally, as Stoked is human. We can recognize such tendencies in thoughts, but can never really eliminate them.

 

[One Brow]

Uncomfortable? I would call them uneducated and unfamiliar. The unknown makes us uncomfortable. Education and exposure problem. Not a racist one. (using the example you provided and assuming that the person does not fall under category 1)

As for calling someone out by name. You don't have to call out names as you just included every last one of us as a racist. Saying specific names at this point is redundant.

It doesn't matter to Yolanda that the human resources person is uneducated, unfamiliar, and uncomfortable as opposed to being hateful. Either way, the result is that Bianca gets called in for an interview, Yolanda does not. Intent is not magic; you don't get a pass on acting in a racist fashion by saying you don't mean any harm.

I have explicitly included myself, many times. The only difference I would posit is my being aware of my racism, and actively working to fight it in my life.

Until now you have nto been doing both. You have been talking about how we are racist. Not you.

Selective memory on your part.

I immensly enjoy how you, Jimles and Onebrow are misinterrepting what I said. I never once said that we should not talk about race. Not once.

I don't recall ever claiming that you wanted silence on the subject, but I apologize for giving the impression that I thought so.

I did say that it is a problem till race no longer matters to us. When I look at a person and see them as a person not a black, arab, latino, white, asian person... same for all of us.

Your kidding yourself if you think you are immune to internalizing the way people are depicted in our media and culture.

 

[One Brow]

I see the way you are trying to spin this, but no. There was zero force involved. People were free to choose and change if they wanted to.

I'm referring to the use of the media and the surrounding cultural. It exerts force on people.

If you are so sure of this I task you with finding some quotes from Mother Theresa and Ghandi where they negatively approach a situation and demean them in an effort to get what they want out of them, rather than having a positive form of speech even when making a point they feel is important.

Mother Theresa wasn't leading a civil rights movement, so I didn't even look. Ghandi was ridiculously easy. I went to the first two sites after I googled "Ghandi quotes". Only someone who had categorized Ghandi as a "not a threatening one of them" would have ever thought otherwise.

From BrainyQuote:

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

It has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves honoured by the humiliation of their fellow beings.

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?


From WikiQuote:

Facts we would always place before our readers, whether they are palatable or not, and it is by placing them constantly before the public in their nakedness that the misunderstanding between the two communities in South Africa can be removed.

My ambition is much higher than independence. Through the deliverance of India, I seek to deliver the so-called weaker races of the Earth from the crushing heels of Western exploitation in which England is the greatest partner.

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.

Whatever Hitler may ultimately prove to be, we know what Hitlerism has come to mean, It means naked, ruthless force reduced to an exact science and worked with scientific precision. In its effect it becomes almost irresistible.

Had we adopted non-violence as the weapon of the strong, because we realised that it was more effective than any other weapon, in fact the mightiest force in the world, we would have made use of its full potency and not have discarded it as soon as the fight against the British was over or we were in a position to wield conventional weapons. But as I have already said, we adopted it out of our helplessness. If we had the atom bomb, we would have used it against the British.

This approach of getting people to see the mote in their eye is particularly ineffective. Why force people two steps back and into a defensive posture in order to discuss an issue? This is like the Mexican military attacking California and/or Texas in an effort to discuss or prove the inefficiencies in the border situation. How likely is the US to talk to them about the issue after a military strike? Yea, that's going to end well. Instead of having open discourse on the subject, the automatic defensive posture of those being attacked will in effect be a wall to useful conversation, and the attacked party will in effect strengthen their own stance on the subject because of the attack.

Not smart if the intent is progress.

You say this based on how many years of fighting racism? Because, what you are saying sounds a lot like what people hear from those who are just trying to maintain the status quo where they are favored? Is there any reason I should accept that you have a better understanding of how to get change accomplished than the dozens of activists I have read? What successes do you have notched in your belt?

One expression for this is "tone trolling". The truth is, more often than not a harsh tone is needed to shake people our of complacency. This has been seen to work.

I don't know who you are agreeing with while quoting me, but I don't think both negative and positive reinforcement are useful. I think positive reinforcement is useful.

I have said nothing about staying quiet on a subject and expecting it to get better as you and others have suggested. I have advocated taking a positive approach, and showing people by example how to do things the right way. I advocate positive communication as opposed to pointing out flaws in other people. If we all work on our own flaws we can make more of a difference than telling people how and why they are wrong and how they screwed up.

People are exceptionally poor judges of themselves. If you only set a positive example, and never point out the negative aspects of another persons behavior, the other person will likely never notice their poor behavior. Using positive and negative reinforcement if much more effective in getting actual changes than positive reinforcement alone.

Now I did not get the story exact, but the main point is easily recognizable if you want to see it.

YOu still need to get the horse to agree on your direction, even when you are alongside it.

Okay.... so a white person, black person, and brown person walk into a bar.......

Too soon?

Depends. Are you punching up or punching down?

 

[Stoked]

You've been gone for weeks and you go straight to the old racism threads. Haha

Welcome back my friend.

 

[One Brow]

How would I? Well I feel that if we are going to give history months than we should do so for all groups and we do not. I feel that those months should be done away with and more importance should be placed on those topics throughout the year.

School is already set up in a community setting. So let us treat it as such.

What groups are missing a month, in your opinion?

What you are talking about is a broad-based curricular change. Such things have political and economic concerns and consequences. It's much easier to convince a school board to have a month, than to insist on a textbook that is more mixed, particularly when such texts are hard to find.

 

[One Brow]

I think it's time we have a honest discussion about male privilege. This is a far bigger problem globally than white privilege.

I agree.