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Re-sign Kanter or sign Draymond Green?

Kanter or Green

  • Kanter

    Votes: 25 62.5%

  • Green

    Votes: 14 35.0%

  • Neither

    Votes: 1 2.5%
  • Total voters
    40
mellow said:
I think Rudy is nasty. Can a person be nasty without throwing food?

Years ago I had a tshirt, printed on the back were these words: in the End, Nice Guys Won't finish last. That was a stupid shirt. Some not-nice guys probably invented that saying as a way to placate some of the competition, and make a Pile of money.

Maybe I should make a tshirt that is more reflective of my life's experiences....
"Nice guys get it in the End, everyday."

Do you think I could make a pile of cash with it? Maybe if I put a picture of Enes on the front?
Click to expand...


Yo, Rudy's first name ain't baby, it's Rudy, and it's Gobert if you are nasty.
 
So I Thought Draymond Green sucked and couldn't shoot.


Looked liked he could shoot to me tonight.


That's small forward manning up and playing the power forward to fit the game plan


Max Draymond Green startem at the 3.


Gobert
Favors
Green
Hayward


Defense defense defense defense
 
https://espn.go.com/blog/golden-state-warriors/post/_/id/252/does-draymond-green-deserve-a-max-deal
During Golden State’s game against the Cleveland Cavaliers on Jan. 9, analyst Jeff Van Gundy made a bold prediction about Draymond Green on the broadcast: “I really think he's going to be a max player.”

Twitter did a double take over a valuation that few, if any, had offered publicly. Van Gundy had a solid case, though, even if it went against conventional wisdom: "How many guys defend, rebound, pass and make 3s? That combination, you just don't see."

While you just don’t see Green’s combination of skills, you also just don’t see guys averaging fewer than 12 points getting max restricted offers -- unless they’re 7 feet tall. If Van Gundy’s right, if this does indeed happen, it would have to mark a sea change in the business of basketball.

We’re talking about a second-round pick who’s shorter than 6-6 in socks, who doesn't jump high, create his own shot or dominate the ball. A rookie max deal for a scrappy “tweener” averaging the fourth-most points per game on his team? Basketball doesn’t work that way -- yet. This summer will be a good test of whether teams pay big for a guy who does all the “little things.”

Green might not boast gaudy traditional stats, but one stat in particular loudly agrees with Van Gundy's assertion. Real plus-minus, which measures a player by how his team does when he’s in the game, lists Green as the 10th-best player in the league. He’s first among wings, ahead of even LeBron James. Of course, Green isn't technically a wing this season; he’s starting at power forward. But that ambiguity of position reflects the value he brings. Against the Mavericks, he ably guarded Dirk Nowitzki and Monta Ellis in the same game. It’s difficult to fit a player like this into a box.

Perhaps you assume his RPM is a fluke, some bizarre byproduct of an excellent Warriors run. That would make sense except Green was third among wings in real plus-minus last season, when he played much of the season among an anemic bench lineup. Green also produced a positive RPM as a rookie despite shooting a horrific 32.7 percent from the field.

“Draymond Green is the poster boy for the defensive superstar who is making contributions that are on par with offensive superstars that we easily recognize,” said Steve Ilardi, one of the architects of RPM.

Green’s ability to guard five positions has been praised, but the underpaid are often paid in compliments like “heart,” “grit” and “hustle.” The idea behind using a team success stat is to make Green’s production register in the way, “25 points per game” resonates. That kind of resonance might elevate an athlete’s status from “gritty” to “superstar.” When I asked if the Warriors should match a rookie max offer, Ilardi answered: “Yes.”

“His defense would probably be the same almost no matter what team he plays on, in part because he can defend so many positions," Jeremias Engelmann, the other half of the RPM team, said via email. "Further, I think he could play a very similar role as he's now playing for GSW for a number of other teams such as TOR, CHI, ATL, WAS, POR, OKC, LAC, (PHX), HOU, MEM, DAL, SAS. That's 12 teams for which I think his role wouldn't change much, and his value would thus not change much either.”

Unlike some other defensive specialists, Green plays enough offense to remain on the floor. His ability to capably hit open 3-pointers means he can play more minutes than Tony Allen or Andre Roberson. He also rebounds, passes, pushes the ball in transition and throws Kevin Love-style outlet passes. About the only thing Green can’t do on a basketball court is create his own shot. That’s minor in the grand scheme, but it's also the skill most associated with stardom. Tradition demands that we consider Green a “role player,” even if he’s excelling at all but one role.

Naturally, I asked Green what his take on the matter: “Do you know where you’re ranked in real plus-minus?”

Green has said before that his greatest defensive asset is his anticipation. He’s smart enough to see what an opponent wants to do in a given situation. It’s said that defense is all about “character,” and maybe it is. But defense also requires a good amount of foresight. It’s good to have heart, but don’t discount the value of psychic powers.

Draymond shredded my quiz tactics: “I mean, the way you making it sound, top 10?”

“You knew!” I said, half-accusingly.

“That's just the way you were making it sound,” Green insisted.

I’ve asked him before if he agreed that he’s a “top-four or -five power forward,” and he concurred. Green is the epitome of a team-first player, but unselfish play does not mean a dearth of confidence. He’s the guy who kept firing 3s through a rookie season where he shot 20.9 percent behind the arc. The man believes in himself and won’t get bashful over stats that speak well of his value.

On the stat: “I'm sure it's fair, obviously. I'm not going to go out on the court and say, ‘Oh, I need to get to No. 1, real plus-minus!’ Everything that happens out there will take care of itself. I'm not going to start worrying about it, but that's pretty cool.”

I asked if he thought new stats that reflected defense would catch on. Green assumes an inevitable shift: “I think it has to [catch on], because everything now is about winning. You can score 25 a night but if you're on a losing team nobody cares.”

I offered that new stats could help with his contract situation. He smiled. “Yeah. That’s pretty cool, too.”

For the Warriors, the issue of Green’s contract is bigger than just Green and bigger than just money. If you noticed a certain TMZ video, Green was at a football game in Seattle with Stephen Curry’s family, throwing grapes at Seahawks fans who’d gotten into a spat with Curry’s wife and mother. That incident doesn’t much matter, but it was illustrative of Green’s friendship with Golden State’s franchise face. Curry certainly wants Green around past this season. The Warriors might not want to pay Green a max offer, but keeping Curry happy, and keeping Curry in the Bay after 2017, are important considerations.

Luckily for the Warriors, Steph’s friend happens to be a very productive NBA player, a “role player” with star production. It’s hard to quantify just how much he does for Golden State, but the closer we get, the more green Draymond seems due
Click to expand...
 
mellow said:
I think Rudy is nasty. Can a person be nasty without throwing food?

Years ago I had a tshirt, printed on the back were these words: in the End, Nice Guys Won't finish last. That was a stupid shirt. Some not-nice guys probably invented that saying as a way to placate some of the competition, and make a Pile of money.

Maybe I should make a tshirt that is more reflective of my life's experiences....
"Nice guys get it in the End, everyday."

Do you think I could make a pile of cash with it? Maybe if I put a picture of Enes on the front?
Click to expand...

That t-shirt should sell really well in San Francisco. See what I did there?
 
freakazoid said:
https://espn.go.com/blog/golden-state-warriors/post/_/id/252/does-draymond-green-deserve-a-max-deal
Click to expand...

I think that we'd be absolute fools not to throw the max at Green in the offseason. Which is all the reason more to trade Kanter. Get something now for him so you don't have to let him walk. I guarantee we would a lot better team with Draymond Green than Enes Kanter. It's a long shot, but it's worth it. A lot of teams will be questioning themselves on offering a "role player the max. We would have a decent shot. I bet Golden State ends up matching, but I think it's worth it. Because we'd still be getting something for Kanter.. It's worth a try. It's not like we are trading a Key player. I think Favors and Gobert are our future bigs. Kanter is now expendable. We should be thanking our lucky stars for Gobert. Because now we can start making some decisions, like we always knew we would. DL says don't skip steps. I think this is a step. It's not skipping steps. We were never going to keep all these players anyway

I'm going to be disappointed if we stay the course for too long and we start to miss windows like these, and also repeat the past of either letting Kanter walk for nothing, or extremely over pay for a 1 way player for 4 very long years. A backup no less


If we keep Kanter then all we get from that is Kanter, and his fat contract.

If we trade Kanter, then we get what we got from the trade plus an opportunity to to go after Green or any other free agent (assuming we don't trade for any big contracts in the Kanter trade).
 
To say "throw the max" at Green is fine to in theory, but a) would he sign an offer sheet with Utah? and b) why wouldn't Golden State match it? Just like Utah, the Warriors know the cap is going up by $20M in 2016. Even a max offer for Green will be manageable. And his friendship with Curry likely means his agent just calls up the GS front office, tells them Utah (amongst other teams?) has offered X dollars and GS writes up a new contract for that amount.

I think the only way the Jazz can even clear enough cap room to make a max offer is to clear Enes and Booker completely off the books, renounce all exceptions and then probably have to find a taker for Novak's contract. After adding back roster holds (have to account for 12 spots), the Jazz could be around $50M, I believe. GVC or anyone else, please check my math! So any asset(s) obtained for Kanter in a trade that are not current expiring contracts would eat into that cap space.

What then happens if we can't get a top tier player to sign with Utah, or in Green's case, let's say the worst case happens: he signs an offer sheet, forcing Utah to make all those moves to clear up space, then GS matches. Great, we have $15-$16M in cap space (depending on how much the cap rises), but we've lost half our bigs. Kanter and Booker are going to find other teams when their options are not picked up by Utah. If the Jazz sign a wing to a big contract, they'd only have the remainder of their cap space or the Room Mid-Level exception to replenish the bigs (assuming they renounce the Non-Tax Payer MLE to clear enough cap space to make a big free agent offer).

There is always the risk of losing Kanter "for nothing." But I think Utah will hedge their bets. Let's say the unlikely happens: Wesley Matthews or Paul Millsap decides he misses Utah and all of us at Jazzfanz. One of them offers to come back for a max deal at $15M/per. Then Utah makes all those roster moves to free up the necessary cap space. And in that scenario, I would think of it as kind of a trade: Booker and Kanter for Matthews or Millsap. If none of that happens (which is MORE probable), Jazz retain Kanter's rights, still have their exceptions (and Booker) and can either convince Kanter to be the 3rd big, do a S&T or match a contract and look to make trades next season or the summer after - when even a HUGE deal for Kanter will look like a bargain.
 
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Hack said:
I think that we'd be absolute fools not to throw the max at Green in the offseason.
Click to expand...

Most people disagree with you. I'm skeptical. Players like this who are in an ideal situation don't always perform the same on a lesser team. The spurs have a reputation for finding all the right role players, but in reality almost anybody is going to look better on that team than they would on most others. Anyway, there's a good discussion on this here:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1367286
 
I don't get the facination with signing Draymond Green for a RFA Max contract. There's way too many things at play to make it a sure thing, and I'm not convinced that he would step his game up a level (like Hayward has) to make that contract justifiable. The Jazz have Gobert, Favors and Hayward as the top three players. Exum might be the future at PG, but it's going to take time and work for him to get there (and for the record, I think he'll be a star). Burke is better now, but his ceiling is low because he shoots way too much for how efficient he is. I can see him as an above-average backup though. Kanter would be a quality big, but like with Green, I'm worried about spending too much for a guy that's not a core player moving forward. I've been a big fan of his for a long time, and I want the Jazz to be able to cash in on his incredible potential, but I don't know if that's ever going to be realized in Utah.

If the Jazz truly decide to commit to the Gobert/Favors/Hayward lineup, I think that they need to look to add another potential first option wing and a PG. IMO, that means that they need to trade for one and sign one. If they're going to do that, they should look to trade Kanter's rights, and/or Burke and a helluva lot of draft picks for a young all star caliber wing and the go all in on getting Goran Dragic.

Gobert/Favors/Hayward/Wing#2/Dragic starting. . . Add a big to replace Kanter this offseason, Booker, Hood, Burks, Exum, Neto (who should have come over last year), Jingles, Baby Sap for another year and then a free agent/draft pick or two to fill out the bench. . .

That would be worth looking at Kanter trade possibilities. If they do trade him, I want it to be part of a bigger deal for a potential star. Forget about going Kanter for pieces. Use his contract to pair with draft picks and go big, or go home. Otherwise, take your chances with free agency and see what happens.

Oh. . . and to increase his value, I'd start a rotation of Gobert/Favors to start games, and then bring Kanter in for Favors and have him play with Rudy. Rudy makes everyone look better. Playing Kanter off the bench AND keeping him with Rudy is the best way to increase his trade value. Bigs who can score are valuable even if they can't play strong defense.
 
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Hack said:
I think that we'd be absolute fools not to throw the max at Green in the offseason. Which is all the reason more to trade Kanter. Get something now for him so you don't have to let him walk. I guarantee we would a lot better team with Draymond Green than Enes Kanter. It's a long shot, but it's worth it. A lot of teams will be questioning themselves on offering a "role player the max. We would have a decent shot. I bet Golden State ends up matching, but I think it's worth it. Because we'd still be getting something for Kanter.. It's worth a try. It's not like we are trading a Key player. I think Favors and Gobert are our future bigs. Kanter is now expendable. We should be thanking our lucky stars for Gobert. Because now we can start making some decisions, like we always knew we would. DL says don't skip steps. I think this is a step. It's not skipping steps. We were never going to keep all these players anyway

I'm going to be disappointed if we stay the course for too long and we start to miss windows like these, and also repeat the past of either letting Kanter walk for nothing, or extremely over pay for a 1 way player for 4 very long years. A backup no less


If we keep Kanter then all we get from that is Kanter, and his fat contract.

If we trade Kanter, then we get what we got from the trade plus an opportunity to to go after Green or any other free agent (assuming we don't trade for any big contracts in the Kanter trade).
Click to expand...

Green at the max gives me the shakes. He is like a 4th option on Golden State. He averages 11 points on low efficiency. He averages 3 assists because Curry and Thompson don't miss.
Luckily DL would never dream of offering him that.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Green at the max gives me the shakes. He is like a 4th option on Golden State. He averages 11 points on low efficiency. He averages 3 assists because Curry and Thompson don't miss.
Luckily DL would never dream of offering him that.
Click to expand...

He also averages 8 rebounds, a couple steals and is #1 in the entire league in defensive rating.
 
QuinSnydersHair said:
He also averages 8 rebounds, a couple steals and is #1 in the entire league in defensive rating.
Click to expand...

Good points, obviously it helps he plays with established defenders in Bogut, Barnes, and Thompson though. Not saying he wouldn't be an upgrade to Kanter, but with a max to Gobert looming in a couple years I couldn't pull the trigger on anything more than 10 a year. We haven't even found our long term PG yet.
 
If the Jazz are paying max money, they new a guy who can be a #1 option on offense. Paying Green that much would be a mistake. Hayward is clearly the better player, and people were bitching high and low about matching his max offer, despite the fact that he also does the little things, is a better offensive option and had spent his entire career in Utah. Plus the Jazz would have lost him for nothing at that point.

They have a good thing going between Gobert, Favors, Hayward and potentially Exum. They need a #1 option on offense at the wing and a PG who can start until Exum is ready.
 
Ellis269 said:
If the Jazz are paying max money, they new a guy who can be a #1 option on offense. Paying Green that much would be a mistake. Hayward is clearly the better player, and people were bitching high and low about matching his max offer, despite the fact that he also does the little things, is a better offensive option and had spent his entire career in Utah. Plus the Jazz would have lost him for nothing at that point.

They have a good thing going between Gobert, Favors, Hayward and potentially Exum. They need a #1 option on offense at the wing and a PG who can start until Exum is ready.
Click to expand...
This
 
Jazz4ever said:
Good points, obviously it helps he plays with established defenders in Bogut, Barnes, and Thompson though. Not saying he wouldn't be an upgrade to Kanter, but with a max to Gobert looming in a couple years I couldn't pull the trigger on anything more than 10 a year. We haven't even found our long term PG yet.
Click to expand...

I don't think I would offer him the max either tbh and also would be reluctant to offer him a deal knowing we'd have to renounce Kanter's rights and he pretty much plays the same position as Favors. But still, I had to defend the guy. He's a great basketball player and everyone's dismissal of him around here just goes to show how little many users know of the sport.
 
Unfortunately, Green's defensive deficiencies have become even more pronounced as a senior. At 6'7, he is too small to guard elite post players, and lacks the lateral quickness to defend perimeter players, even face-up power forwards at the NCAA level. While his effort and aggressiveness will never be questioned, it is difficult to project him as an adequate NBA defender at this time.

From DraftExpress.com https://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz3P7isclxD
https://www.draftexpress.com
Click to expand...

Now the top rated defender in the NBA. What?
 
Cy said:
Weirdest ish ever. Wasn't he considered a potential defensive liability coming into the NBA? Crazy turnaround in that area.
Click to expand...

I don't want to say yes definitively but from what I recall yes simply because of his tweener status and a general lack of conditioning and athleticism, relatively speaking.
 
I thought defense would keep Green from ever being a key rotation player in the NBA tbh. But that's okay, cuz I think most thought the same.

Always knew he was super smart player doe. Never doubts about making right plays
 
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