RIP Robin Williams

[DForceAUS]

I know how you felt in that respect. I've never attempted suicide, but have been that low and contemplated. I will say that a few times in life, the ONLY thing that kept me going was the hope of a HIGHER POWER and the fear that, in death, I would be told, "had you just stuck it out another day, month, year...this would have been your life..." And it was certainly the case after my first marriage ended. Took a while to meet someone else and start a family, but now I have the greatest daughter in the world. But the fight continues when life throws curve balls of physical challenges, unemployment, etc. I suspect I will never completely conquer depression, only manage to hopefully keep it at bay.

Mate I know the feeling, my son has definitely changed the way I see things...had my own long battles with depression. All we need to do is ask someone who is troubled ..are you ok? sometimes just listening or showing you care saves someones life.

 

[fishonjazz]

So someone who kills someone else due to mental illness is a vile human being that deserves a prison sentence, but someone who kills themselves due to mental illness is deserving of our sympathies and empathy.

You can't look at a rapist and say that he couldn't help it, his brain chemicals were jacked up and try as he may have, he finally succumbed to his temptations. So why are we fine to say that suicide victims couldn't help it, and that the chemical imbalance was to blame?

Because when a person commits suicide they believe that they are doing everyone a favor and making the world a better place....and probably sometimes are.

 

[fishonjazz]

The person who molests children initiates force against them. That person denies that child ownership over their own body/self. The standard, in my mind, is very clear.

Also, this

 

[fishonjazz]

Two totally different crimes, I'm not debating that. I'm debating the remorse we feel for one mentally ill person verses the vitriol that is spewed at another.

And he told you why one gets remorse and the other does not

 

[moevillini]

All suicide victims, at some level, want exactly what Williams received over the last 24 hours: confirmation that they will be missed when they are gone.

You've spoken with these people then, I presume?

Maybe he subpoenaed them? Dead and gone - but don't underestimate the long arm of the law!

 

[LogGrad98]

So someone who kills someone else due to mental illness is a vile human being that deserves a prison sentence, but someone who kills themselves due to mental illness is deserving of our sympathies and empathy.

You can't look at a rapist and say that he couldn't help it, his brain chemicals were jacked up and try as he may have, he finally succumbed to his temptations. So why are we fine to say that suicide victims couldn't help it, and that the chemical imbalance was to blame?

I know, I know, I haven't brought up Nazi Germany yet, but keep avoiding the question and I'm sure it will pop up.

Actually we can say that. That may just be a statement of fact. It in no way shape or form excuses that person from full responsibility for his actions, but it does explain them somewhat. The individual still owns the act, the outcome, and the consequences of the act.

The same applies in suicide imo. The difference to me is exactly what fish and GF have already outlined. Intent is part of every criminal trial. It is the difference between manslaughter and 1st degree murder, or no charge at all even with a death (tony stewart perhaps). The intent when you directly attack another individual is pretty clear, say taking your 8 year old niece into your basement and molesting or raping her, as is the outcome even if in some twisted way the person thinks they are doing the best thing for their 8 year old niece by raping her the damage to the other individual is undeniable.

But all that is far less clear with a suicide.

That has been the point I am trying to get across. I in no way condone Robin William's choice to end his life by suicide, and I agree it was a selfish act. However, the intent may not have been purely motivated by self-interest. I doubt you are going to find many sociopathic pedophiles who honestly believe what they were doing was in the best interest of the child they raped. Yet I think in more cases of suicide or attempted suicide you would find that is often the case.

Again, it doesn't condone it, I am not trying to get anyone to believe that suicide is a valid option (although it may be a topic of conversation we need to engage in...at what point is my life just purely mine to do with as I please and not a matter of law and legislation), but I think for the interests of treating this kind of mental health issue we need to understand it, recognize the motivations and mechanisms that drive someone to that, and open a dialogue if we are really going to make progress in this area. It is a social change we need regarding the prevailing attitudes toward depression and suicide, instead it is more often than not treated as the dirty little secret we don't ever dare discuss in "good company".

Understandably this is a very polarizing and difficult issue, as the pain it causes is very real, whether suicide is ever even attempted, but the stigma of mental health issues like depression are not helped in the tiniest little bit, and in fact are set back decades, with attitudes such as "let the ****er burn in hell for all I care, look what he did to his family" and "only estrogen-filled ******* would even consider that, grow up and be a man".

 

[moevillini]

One of the problems with mental illness is that it is difficult to define and diagnose, and frequently there are overlapping issues. Depression is often actually one end of bipolar disorder where the "manic" phase is very low-key; there are also anxiety disorders that may be involved and there may be substance abuse complicating things further. Treatment with therapy, medication, lifestyle changes etc. help a great deal but generally there is no "cure" ...

...I was very close to someone who took his life six years ago after a 30+ year struggle with bipolar disorder. I was one of the major "firemen" who was always called upon to rescue him and his family (i.e., provide funds and other support) after he would get into trouble in one way or another...

...at some point, I just couldn't resolve the dilemma of thinking that he should know better than to get involved in some of the things he was doing - is it the "illness" or isn't it? Hard to say.

I do believe though that as sad and difficult as it was, he probably did his family a favor and it took real courage to do that. His family was pretty messed up and dysfunctional and at least now his wife and daughter are living productive lives that aren't focused entirely on his pathology. It's still sad though, and I wish with all my heart that there could have been a different outcome.

The guy killed himself and ruined the lives of those that loved him, yet everyone is giving him a break due to mental illness that he has no control over. Tell me then; is the same consideration given to the mentally sick man who gets his rocks off by molesting kids? It's easy to say that the molester should just ignore his impulses, right?

Double standard?

Not picking sides here, because I see both sides and respect people from both sides of the argument. I'm only putting in my two cents.

definitely that's part of the issue that complicates my own thinking

I think the error, as I see it, is in thinking that he "ruined" the lives of those who loved him. Have some faith in people that they have enough strength and resilience and resources to get through the most difficult days and find peace and comfort in the "gifts" he gave them during his life.

I know this is probably opposite to what many of you believe, but I think the person who commits suicide has a great deal of faith - - and it's that faith that gives them the courage to do what they do. Because I think in many cases it does take a great deal of faith and courage to take your own life. (somewhat simplistic, but that's the gist of it)

(at least those that are adults, not children or teen-agers, that's a much different aspect of the suicide issue as I see it)

And I guess that is part of the difference as I see it between an act of suicide and an act of homicide - one is done out of courage, the other out of fear.

 

[Hantlers]

LoL .. this is just too rich coming from you. I've been on this board for nearly four years and not once have I heard a kind word from you. In fact the exact opposite is true.

I'm sure I've said a kind word about you at least once…maybe.

I'll work on it, ok?

 

[Hantlers]

There's not much on Earth that we can call our own. When I think about what's mine, truly mine, I cross almost everything off the list. I can't cross my life off, though, because if that's not mine, then nothing is.

I understand why you and others would feel differently, but from a religious standpoint, I feel differently. That's all.

 

[One Brow]

Tell me then; is the same consideration given to the mentally sick man who gets his rocks off by molesting kids? It's easy to say that the molester should just ignore his impulses, right?

Double standard?

The difference between doing what causes pleasure and what relieves pain.

 

[One Brow]

So someone who kills someone else due to mental illness is a vile human being that deserves a prison sentence, but someone who kills themselves due to mental illness is deserving of our sympathies and empathy.

Actually, people who kill others from mental illness (when this is proven) go to hospitals for treatment, not prison.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Two totally different crimes, I'm not debating that. I'm debating the remorse we feel for one mentally ill person verses the vitriol that is spewed at another.

I consider it an interesting question. It's a consequence of the culturally-constructed legacy surrounding molestation.


For example, some parts of the world (distinctly, these islands in the Pacific-- the name escapes me) have a culture of <18 year old boys regularly fellating their elders, even if it's against their 'wills'. A custom that's as vomit-inducing as they come here in our western world.





Personally, I think there is something mentally wrong with molesters just as much as there is something wrong with one who has depression. There is nothing "natural" about the desire to pursue relations with a child against his/her will, and thus I chalk it up to some sort of mental instability. I find the justice "just", but I often think of what the backstory if a given molester is, or what could have brought him/her to that point.



Suicide victims get my remorse moreso because they are basically ridding themselves of such a beautiful gift, whereas molesters are not only ruining their own lives, but they are possibly ruining generations of lives of others.

 

[Harambe]

.......................... and here comes our stupid cow, pulling the heavy troll plow.

I'm not so sure it is a troll. The difference between mental disorder and mental illness is marginal at best. I feel like there's two things that need to be addressed before we agree or disagree with the buttfish's statement.

1. Is Child Molesting learned behavior, or the result of a natural imbalance of some sort in the brain? I dare say in almost all cases it's a combination of the two, but that's just opinion.
2. Compare and contrast the Victimology between the two offenses. One severely traumatizes children leading them to have an immense degree of (up to permanent)mental disorders themselves; the other traumatizes those who had a connection to the offender only as much as the connection itself, but rarely enough to cause permanent damage.

There's great thinking there, and it should be thought through more thoroughly before tossing the notion aside.

 

[The Midnight]

I'm sure I've said a kind word about you at least once…maybe.

I'll work on it, ok?

At least you're being honest - gotta give you that.


Well work on it then, cos the things you say and the things you do aren't remotely close IMO.

 

[♪alt13]

What a horrible read the last few pages have been.

 

[TroutBum]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. Fwiw, I wasn't singling out molestation, or murder, or rape; just trying to make a point, or rather, open up the conversation.

In response to an answer that most of you brought up re: suicide not causing harm to others, we will simply have to agree to disagree on that one. I dare say that the three year old girl who gets molested by a neighbor is better off than the wife who comes home to find a son or husband who has blown their head off. Both are tragic and horrific, but the suicide will haunt the wife and family much longer and harder than the child who will not remember the abuse.

But seriously, thanks for the responses.

 

[UGLI baby]

Trout.

STAAAAAHP.




£¥£

 

[TroutBum]

Trout.

STAAAAAHP.




£¥£

WTF does that crap mean? You hipsters and your LOL's n' ****.

 

[UGLI baby]

lol


£¥£

 

[LogGrad98]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. Fwiw, I wasn't singling out molestation, or murder, or rape; just trying to make a point, or rather, open up the conversation.

In response to an answer that most of you brought up re: suicide not causing harm to others, we will simply have to agree to disagree on that one. I dare say that the three year old girl who gets molested by a neighbor is better off than the wife who comes home to find a son or husband who has blown their head off. Both are tragic and horrific, but the suicide will haunt the wife and family much longer and harder than the child who will not remember the abuse.

But seriously, thanks for the responses.

It absolutely hurts the family, but it also begs the question, whose pain matters most? I don't think there will ever be an easy answer to that question. I can understand both sides of the equation, and my pick would be to do our best to push things forward so we can stop the pain all the way around.