Roster Building From Here - FA and Summer of 2023

[HermanG]

**** me. Some of you have shocking comprehension.

I literally stated in my post that I don't like our options in free agency. We can either get vets who don't improve us and take game time away from our young players (Kessler, Ochai, Jazz Pick, Minny Pick) or we can over pay for Kuzma and Grant which I don't like either player for the role they would expect. For me the best use of cap space would be to take on bad contracts (nothing crippling) and help other teams out at their expense of a first round draft pick. Those guys can offer vet presence but also not take too many minutes away from the guys we need to develop which is what will be the main goal next season. Won't be a case of tanking but we're not winning many games with potentially 4 first/second year players getting major minutes, especially given how strong the west is.

Bertans and Lowry are out of contract at the end of next season. Robinson is the only really bad contract but even he will be movable by the time we decide to go all in once the salary cap increases in a couple of seasons. THJ is pretty easy contract to move. We will still have plenty of cap space for the following free agency period which is a far better group of out of contract players.

The main reason Danny made cleared that cap space is he now has even more flexibility (it was only Conley who was eating our salary space for next season). If any opportunity arises he can pivot into a win now move but more than likely that won't happen and we have a team that largely resembles the team we have this season but with more young players.

How is my comprehension lacking? You literally contradict yourself inside your own post (see bolded parts)... and also repeated the argument I made opposing your idea.

DA at trade deadline:
"Hey I know, instead of going full tank lets instead just free some future cap space so that we are in position to make moves next offseason!"
DA in the offseason 4 months later:
"Hey I know, lets stuff our cap space so that we cannot make moves until 2025 or something!"

Compared to Conley, those THJ, Lowry, Bertans and Robinson are ALL worse value/money contracts. They are negative contracts that the curret teams cannot get rid of without giving picks (which is your point for making those trades in the first place!!!!). Now if we got those guys, we would be stuck to tanking with a team that is too good to tank properly but too tied up moneywise to build a playoff roster.

Also even the full tank bottom of NBA teams who have cap space arent touching that Robinson contract unless Miami pays a hefty price.

 

[Tom349]

How is my comprehension lacking? You literally contradict yourself inside your own post (see bolded parts)... and also repeated the argument I made opposing your idea.

DA at trade deadline:
"Hey I know, instead of going full tank lets instead just free some future cap space so that we are in position to make moves next offseason!"
DA in the offseason 4 months later:
"Hey I know, lets stuff our cap space so that we cannot make moves until 2025 or something!"

Compared to Conley, those THJ, Lowry, Bertans and Robinson are ALL worse value/money contracts. They are negative contracts that the curret teams cannot get rid of without giving picks (which is your point for making those trades in the first place!!!!). Now if we got those guys, we would be stuck to tanking with a team that is too good to tank properly but too tied up moneywise to build a playoff roster.

Also even the full tank bottom of NBA teams who have cap space arent touching that Robinson contract unless Miami pays a hefty price.

How have I contradicted myself.

Conley was guaranteed money next season and was our bad contract which we had to give picks to get off, with him we couldn't do anything in free agency but also couldn't absorb a bad contract without sending money back. We can now go in either direction. Their might be a player who Danny likes in free agency and we secure or like most years we strike out in free agency and need to do something with our cap space.

We are not stuffing any future cap space, Robinson deal is the only one that is long term and won't look anywhere near as bad once the salary cap rises as expected (last year not fully guaranteed either). The rest of the deals either finish next season or a player like THJ who is easily moved.

LMAO at being too good to tank. With the exception of our unexpected start we have been every bit one of the worst teams in the west. With no Conley, potentially no Clarkson and KO we will be even worse, the guys I propose we bring in are considerable downgrades. We should finish this season with the third worst record in the west, a full season without those players above and that is likely a record closer to that of Houston and SA. Factor in more minutes for developing players and next season we won't be anywhere near a play in spot.

 

[HermanG]

How have I contradicted myself.

Conley was guaranteed money next season and was our bad contract which we had to give picks to get off, with him we couldn't do anything in free agency but also couldn't absorb a bad contract without sending money back. We can now go in either direction. Their might be a player who Danny likes in free agency and we secure or like most years we strike out in free agency and need to do something with our cap space.

We are not stuffing any future cap space, Robinson deal is the only one that is long term and won't look anywhere near as bad once the salary cap rises as expected (last year not fully guaranteed either). The rest of the deals either finish next season or a player like THJ who is easily moved.

LMAO at being too good to tank. With the exception of our unexpected start we have been every bit one of the worst teams in the west. With no Conley, potentially no Clarkson and KO we will be even worse, the guys I propose we bring in are considerable downgrades. We should finish this season with the third worst record in the west, a full season without those players above and that is likely a record closer to that of Houston and SA. Factor in more minutes for developing players and next season we won't be anywhere near a play in spot.

I pointed out clear and obvious how you contradicted yourself. You say we wanted to create space and flexibility only to take away that space and flexibility in the offseason. We sold cheap to get that Lakers pick + Russ contract over various other options we were rumored to have. We didnt clear cap space just to use it for bad contracts. We just wanted that asset and cap space to be in position to improve going forward.

And you contradicted yourself again in that last post. "We are gonna be bad without Conley" and "We had to pay to get rid of Conley's contract"... how does that combination of thoughts make sense? Is Conley a player who can elevate a team or not?

Also about not stuffing any future cap space.... dude what is your source for contract info!? Its not the same as mine for sure. Or is your idea of future something that only starts after 24/25 season? Those contracts you mentioned eat almost 50M of cap in 24/25 season. Not to mention that 80M hit in 23/24 which would completely take us out of any big name trades that could become available during next 16+ months.

It is so blatantly obvious what DA is doing and they have even been 100% honest about the direction and what they are looking to do going forward.... and their actions support that. Yet you are saying they are suddenly gonna reverse course completely based on nothing except the fact you dont like guys on FA. Like DA doesnt know who is gonna be on the market...

Also for the record... if Danny is trying to tank he must be the *****ies GM ever to do that. We have won 2 of 3 since the trade deadline playing all 3 games on the road. Too good to tank is what we are now, and we will be better next year and even worse at tanking.

 

[Tom349]

I pointed out clear and obvious how you contradicted yourself. You say we wanted to create space and flexibility only to take away that space and flexibility in the offseason. We sold cheap to get that Lakers pick + Russ contract over various other options we were rumored to have. We didnt clear cap space just to use it for bad contracts. We just wanted that asset and cap space to be in position to improve going forward.

And you contradicted yourself again in that last post. "We are gonna be bad without Conley" and "We had to pay to get rid of Conley's contract"... how does that combination of thoughts make sense? Is Conley a player who can elevate a team or not?

Also about not stuffing any future cap space.... dude what is your source for contract info!? Its not the same as mine for sure. Or is your idea of future something that only starts after 24/25 season? Those contracts you mentioned eat almost 50M of cap in 24/25 season. Not to mention that 80M hit in 23/24 which would completely take us out of any big name trades that could become available during next 16+ months.

It is so blatantly obvious what DA is doing and they have even been 100% honest about the direction and what they are looking to do going forward.... and their actions support that. Yet you are saying they are suddenly gonna reverse course completely based on nothing except the fact you dont like guys on FA. Like DA doesnt know who is gonna be on the market...

Also for the record... if Danny is trying to tank he must be the *****ies GM ever to do that. We have won 2 of 3 since the trade deadline playing all 3 games on the road. Too good to tank is what we are now, and we will be better next year and even worse at tanking.

I haven't contradicted myself one bit you idiot. Flexibility allows us to possibly land a good player free agency, land a couple of decent players or use it to take on bad contracts. My idea would be help accomodate teams making moves in free agency on the basis we are not able to attract any one with our offers. We aren't locked in any direction which is what we would have been had we kept Conley. How ****ing hard is that to understand?

Again haven't contradicted myself. Conley makes us a better team, he also had little trade value given he is on 22m a year, injury prone and 35 years old. There countless examples of players making teams better but not being worth the cost.

Lowry contract expires end of the next season same with Bertans provided he plays less than 75% of games. Those two alone would free up 47m in cap space at the end of next season, Gay and THT expirings would free up an additional 17m. A whooping 62m of cap space for the 24/25 free agency period. THJ expires the year after and again is not a crippling contract, in fact a pretty valuable player for his contract at that point, can be easily moved to free up more cap space. Robinson expires the year after that although can be brought out as he only has 9.7m guaranteed in the his final year, by which time the NBA salary cap will be much higher and you could give him away for a couple of second round picks.

How do their actions support that? If being good was really the objective we don't make the trade for Westbrook. This is ****ing Utah, when did we last pick up a good free agent? The likelihood is we have two top 15 picks from this years draft playing significant minutes next season in addition to Kessler and Ochai. Danny isn't putting out a team to win next season, espeically when our only pick is top 10 protected. It will be about development, he might find someone in free agency that helps push the time line forward for the following season but thats incredibly unlikely given the options on the market. Trading for guys like Lowry and THJ isn't a tanking move either. We likely don't improve or get worse, we simply get compensated for helping other teams complete the deals they feel they need to do to improve.

We beat a **** pacers teams that is trying to lose and a disjointed raptors team.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

If being good was really the objective we don't make the trade for Westbrook.

We literally have the most efficient offensive player in the league and he's getting almost 40 minutes per game lately.

Does that make sense to you? Why not 30 minutes for Lauri? How about 28? I mean, he's already an All Star... he could use the "rest", right? We're not trying to win anyway.

Nah. When you're trying to win, you play a guy like that as much as possible. And that's what Hardy is doing.

I love how the tankers simply can't explain Lauri away. As long as he's getting crazy minutes and producing like he is, he's the elephant in the room.

 

[HermanG]

I haven't contradicted myself one bit you idiot. Flexibility allows us to possibly land a good player free agency, land a couple of decent players or use it to take on bad contracts. My idea would be help accomodate teams making moves in free agency on the basis we are not able to attract any one with our offers. We aren't locked in any direction which is what we would have been had we kept Conley. How ****ing hard is that to understand?

Again haven't contradicted myself. Conley makes us a better team, he also had little trade value given he is on 22m a year, injury prone and 35 years old. There countless examples of players making teams better but not being worth the cost.

Lowry contract expires end of the next season same with Bertans provided he plays less than 75% of games. Those two alone would free up 47m in cap space at the end of next season, Gay and THT expirings would free up an additional 17m. A whooping 62m of cap space for the 24/25 free agency period. THJ expires the year after and again is not a crippling contract, in fact a pretty valuable player for his contract at that point, can be easily moved to free up more cap space. Robinson expires the year after that although can be brought out as he only has 9.7m guaranteed in the his final year, by which time the NBA salary cap will be much higher and you could give him away for a couple of second round picks.

How do their actions support that? If being good was really the objective we don't make the trade for Westbrook. This is ****ing Utah, when did we last pick up a good free agent? The likelihood is we have two top 15 picks from this years draft playing significant minutes next season in addition to Kessler and Ochai. Danny isn't putting out a team to win next season, espeically when our only pick is top 10 protected. It will be about development, he might find someone in free agency that helps push the time line forward for the following season but thats incredibly unlikely given the options on the market. Trading for guys like Lowry and THJ isn't a tanking move either. We likely don't improve or get worse, we simply get compensated for helping other teams complete the deals they feel they need to do to improve.

We beat a **** pacers teams that is trying to lose and a disjointed raptors team.

I see where you are coming from, but obviously we completely disagree with the direction and both can twist the narrative our own way. So this is kinda pointless to debate about.

Still disagree about the Conely part, since we had multiple callers from teams who were on the buyer side of things. They saw Conley as a cheap upgrade, and I'm 100% sure we had SRP deals on the table but Danny rightfully doesnt give a fk about some Clippers future second rounders. He was never a dump.

As for their actions supporting what they say... they traded away 2 pieces that didnt fit (Beasley and Vando) and 3rd (Conley) who wasnt going to be in our championship window. The most telling thing however was that they didnt trade away Clarkson and KO. Justify keeping those two based on your tanking logic. If I wanted to tank, I sell them both for the highest bidder for sure. I mean we were what 2 games above Indy at the deadline?

 

[HermanG]

We literally have the most efficient offensive player in the league and he's getting almost 40 minutes per game lately.

Does that make sense to you? Why not 30 minutes for Lauri? How about 28? I mean, he's already an All Star... he could use the "rest", right? We're not trying to win anyway.

Nah. When you're trying to win, you play a guy like that as much as possible. And that's what Hardy is doing.

I love how the tankers simply can't explain Lauri away. As long as he's getting crazy minutes and producing like he is, he's the elephant in the room.

He can push that narrative and it makes sense in the way he presents that. But it doesn't mean he is right. Most in here know we are not gonna become the contract garbage bin of the league next offseason.. if we wanted to deep dive into the bottom then we would have to trade Lauri to achieve that.

 

[Tom349]

We literally have the most efficient offensive player in the league and he's getting almost 40 minutes per game lately.

Does that make sense to you? Why not 30 minutes for Lauri? How about 28? I mean, he's already an All Star... he could use the "rest", right? We're not trying to win anyway.

Nah. When you're trying to win, you play a guy like that as much as possible. And that's what Hardy is doing.

I love how the tankers simply can't explain Lauri away. As long as he's getting crazy minutes and producing like he is, he's the elephant in the room.

Its not black and white. Hardy is going to want to win as a coach, the players are going to want to win, Danny Ainge wants to develop a winning culture but at the same time knows that means **** all if you don't have the talent to actually win the grand prize. Not all tanks jobs are created equally. Even at Boston Danny never created a team that was intentionally bad which my trade suggestions don't create an intentionally bad team, but he was definitely ruthless and was committed to giving guys opportunity before trading them at their peak value. He didn't have to deliberately sit guys out like the tanking job OKC and Philly did.

 

[Tom349]

I see where you are coming from, but obviously we completely disagree with the direction and both can twist the narrative our own way. So this is kinda pointless to debate about.

Still disagree about the Conely part, since we had multiple callers from teams who were on the buyer side of things. They saw Conley as a cheap upgrade, and I'm 100% sure we had SRP deals on the table but Danny rightfully doesnt give a fk about some Clippers future second rounders. He was never a dump.

As for their actions supporting what they say... they traded away 2 pieces that didnt fit (Beasley and Vando) and 3rd (Conley) who wasnt going to be in our championship window. The most telling thing however was that they didnt trade away Clarkson and KO. Justify keeping those two based on your tanking logic. If I wanted to tank, I sell them both for the highest bidder for sure. I mean we were what 2 games above Indy at the deadline?

I disagree with the idea but I do think they want JC here long term. Im a fan of his but going forward would rather go in a different direction. KO has lost any of his earlier season trade value and is more valuable to us with his 3m guaranteed option for next season. Again comes down to flexibility. JC could leave for a better offer and KO could be cut and we have an additional 25m in cap space this off season.

I don't think keeping either player stop us from having the third worst record in the west. My biggest gripe in regards to keeping them is the opportunity its stop others from getting, rather than adding more wins.

 

[HermanG]

FYI. Zanik talked about the trade in Roundball Roundup podcast. Link below.

Few pickups (all related to the trade):
- He sounded like NAW was the guy they didn't want to give up, but had to to make the deal happen.
- He used the words "as we are opening our championship window"
- "We also had some challenges going into the season where our roster was not quite balanced"
- "What we wanted to accomplish by the end of this year, results agnostic, was to come out knowing what each player kind of is going forward"
- More THT minutes, Sexton in a bigger role. Also mentions Dok.

Also when asked about the 15 FRP we have he immediately jumps to add the cap space and roster flexibility to that and says the options are endless. First thing he mentions is "unbalanced contract trade".. which of course can be interpreted as getting a star without matching money or taking a bad contract without giving up players. However the tone indicates its more about the former than the latter.

Sidenote:
Zanik seems to respect Hardy a lot and appreciate what he has done with this roster.

Roundball Roundup: Justin Zanik on the Jazz's trade deadline

Jazz general manager Justin Zanik joined JP Chunga to recap the deadline, Will Hardy, and Russell Westbrook.

www.nba.com

 

[HermanG]

I disagree with the idea but I do think they want JC here long term. Im a fan of his but going forward would rather go in a different direction. KO has lost any of his earlier season trade value and is more valuable to us with his 3m guaranteed option for next season. Again comes down to flexibility. JC could leave for a better offer and KO could be cut and we have an additional 25m in cap space this off season.

I don't think keeping either player stop us from having the third worst record in the west. My biggest gripe in regards to keeping them is the opportunity its stop others from getting, rather than adding more wins.

Its fine, we can disagree and probably forget this conversation happened before either one is proven right or wrong. I'm just fairly certain we are not looking towards the bottom.. which honestly is really hard to do with a guy like Lauri on the roster playing big minutes.

 

[Step-Back Hook]

One thing I am sure of: no one is going to be overpaid.

I see us adding one rookie into starting five and another one or two into the bench to show if they can become starters. I think we gonna do one trade up in the draft to secure as someone we really want to get here. With our three firsts and a 2nd it makes no sense to me adding four rookies. We have Sexton that is relatively young as well as Lauri - both in good contracts. We have Kessler as the third starter. Then we have Ochai that I think might be starting off the bench on becoming season. Then we have THT on the bench. Five young or relatively young piece that makes a good start.

Then there is. JC - now will he get re-signed or not that's the biggest question. We need a rookie wing and a rookie guard. If JC gets re-signed I think our starting rookie will be at 3/4 position. If JC goes somewhere else our starting rookie can be also on guard position to start becoming season.
I would prefere to move on fro JC bc I am not sure if he is ok going back to start off the bench and Sexton has showed me he belongs to the starting five. We need more playmaking for the future and I don't care if he is a wing or a guard as far he can create on a high level.

Then we will sign one or two more experienced dudes on team friendly deal to mentor. I don't know who the are but that's what we gonna sign from FA or do some cute small trade for them.

Lauri and Kessler are the only locks for starters on becoming season and i would like Sexton to be the third. I predict we have just one rookie on starters while one or two will work their way up off the bench.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think Grant Williams is a guy we end up seriously pursuing. I could see it even being a sign and trade with KO headed back to Boston. They are kind of out of budget and I can see Grant getting 20M a year. I’m kinda wishy washy about him honestly… good defender but not like a lock down guard defender. He’s also really annoying… he might have a little more to his game he can expand on though.

 

[Udidthizz]

That 27 LAL first is the year after the season they will most likely be tanking, if everyone left, having their own pick. If they don't tank they wont in 27 eitther knowing the odds of keeping it are shiut. They are not likely to be nearly as bad in 27 with as fast as LAL have added free agents in the past.
If the Jazz can trade that pick before the 26 season starts, maybe it has nice return value. Otherwise it is probably going to lose value quickly. AD probably stays there if they can get some help in free agency after Lebron goes back to CLE for his farewell tour.

I hope we can use that pick to move up in the draft to get a guy we really want. Obviously no one can predict what the Lakers will do in 27, but it may end up like a game of hot potato where the last one holding it looks the fool.

 

[Douchebag K]

Next year is probably going to suck so bad. Maybe even the year after There’s no “championship window” coming if we don’t rank

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Next year is probably going to suck so bad. Maybe even the year after There’s no “championship window” coming if we don’t rank

We desperately need a home run in this draft... whether that comes by hitting the lotto and jumping into the top 4 or having one of the three picks be awesome immediately. I think we have a decent chance at making it happen.

 

[Step-Back Hook]

We desperately need a home run in this draft... whether that comes by hitting the lotto and jumping into the top 4 or having one of the three picks be awesome immediately. I think we have a decent chance at making it happen.

I agree: Multiple picks incoming. Great GM, great coach, great developmental staff. even without a top 4 pick chances are ok to find a hit.

 

[Jingled]

I know there's been some talk on here about pursuing Grant Williams in free agency this summer. Marc Stein is reporting he's seeking a Keldon Johnson type deal, around $20 million a year.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I know there's been some talk on here about pursuing Grant Williams in free agency this summer. Marc Stein is reporting he's seeking a Keldon Johnson type deal, around $20 million a year.

I bet he gets it too. Any decent FA in their mid 20s will get some dough this offseason. Especially 3 and D types. I bet Williams gets $20M a year... Cam Johnson likely $25M a year-ish. Its a lot, but I won't be surprised.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Since Atlanta couldn't find a deal for Collins, does anybody think they would get desperate enough to sell Hunter in order to avoid the tax? (Someone please validate my crazy idea)