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Rudy Gobert has got to go

franklin said:
Gobert has to remain at the upper end of the 90th percentile range on the FiveThirtyEight's Carmelo Projection to keep last season's impact up for long. His VORP is still going to be high though even if it goes into decline.
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His Carmelo Projection puts this year as his peak year too (unless I'm reading it wrong.)
 
Why they ever thought pairing Rudy with a non shooting point guard was and is a good idea is beyond me. Rudy'' minutes should be limited now, and they should never be used up up while paired with Rubio.
 
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It's not totally out of the realm of possibility that Gobert can be traded. However, the player coming Utah's way has to be ver juicy, and a difference maker. Anything short of that and we should hang up the phone, and this is why the suggestion of trading Rudy is mute, imo.

No doubt the FO wants to keep him, and the chances of a team sending that spectacular superstar our way in return, is virtually zero.

Build around him and Mitchell. Give Ex every opportunity to succeed as well and hope/plan for a good backcourt of Dante and Donovan, packaged together with Rudy's impact on the court.

If the above came to fruition and yielded results, we would be a very competitive playoff team. Not necessarily winning a chip, that takes something different entirely, the last maybe 30 or so years has proven that.
 
Archie Moses said:
1. I have addressed this roster with Rudy and have done so multiple times.
2. I never said he wasn't a top 15 player. (But can understand arguments why he's not too.)
3. Source: (click on results to look at the centers and their peak age breakdown)
4. Since the dynamic of the team has changed so much, like you've said, then why is Rudy the undeniable one to build around? I don't think any GM would think this way. I absolutely think you can build around him just like I think they would discuss moving him if it made sense.
5. We have not seen any configuration of Rudy that takes us where we want to go. A championship.
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1. I haven't read it but hopefully you agree with how obviously bad it is for him.
2. Ok so saying he is top 10 isn't really a big stretch either then. Last year there was a debate but he was definitely in the 7-15 range.
3. Cool. Thanks for the link. I'm not really taking this one all that seriously, though. Use of PPG doesn't really apply to Rudy and isn't a great measure. There are a ton of extra variables that I don't think his sample size addresses. Things like weight, role, type of player, etc. I think it's pretty safe to say that Rudy 's next 5 years should be his prime years. You kind of have to prove why your data points matter. So I'm not very convinced by this as an argument that Rudy has reached his peak.
4. Because you can literally build a top NBA defense around him. He has shown how valuable he is on that end and you can also pair him with high usage players on the other end and he can still be effective. Basically he is one of the most unique players in the game, and can fit well with almost any star players (especially wing players). He's good enough that it would be crazy to think you'll get a better player in a trade with him.
5. This is a stupid comment. I guess that means every player who isn't on the warriors or Cavs isn't good enough?. We've seen Harden not get there, CP3, Embiid, Lillard etc, etc. Rudy is one piece of a 3 headed monster that could win a championship. You might have the second with Mitchell. Now you need to find a third, get lucky on a few vets/role players, and wait till the warriors break up in a couple years. Championships aren't won with one player anymore if they ever were. They are won by combining stars.
 
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It would have to take a perfect trade offer to trade Gobert. We just need to trade Favors before we get to that point. I'm completely over the IF Favors does this game. He is who he is.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Quin's Murderface said:
1. I haven't read it but hopefully you agree with how obviously bad it is for him.
2. Ok so saying he is top 10 isn't really a big stretch either then. Last year there was a debate but he was definitely in the 7-15 range.
3. Cool. Thanks for the link. I'm not really taking this one all that seriously, though. Use of PPG doesn't really apply to Rudy and isn't a great measure. There are a ton of extra variables that I don't think his sample size addresses. Things like weight, role, type of player, etc. I think it's pretty safe to say that Rudy 's next 5 years should be his prime years. You kind of have to prove why your data points matter. So I'm not very convinced by this as an argument that Rudy has reached his peak.
4. Because you can literally build a top NBA defense around him. He has shown how valuable he is on that end and you can also pair him with high usage players on the other end and he can still be effective. Basically he is one of the most unique players in the game, and can fit well with almost any star players (especially wing players). He's good enough that it would be crazy to think you'll get a better player in a trade with him.
5. This is a stupid comment. I guess that means every player who isn't on the warriors or Cavs isn't good enough?. We've seen Harden not get there, CP3, Embiid, Lillard etc, etc. Rudy is one piece of a 3 headed monster that could win a championship. You might have the second with Mitchell. Now you need to find a third, get lucky on a few vets/role players, and wait till the warriors break up in a couple years. Championships aren't won with one player anymore if they ever were. They are won by combing stars.
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I'll break this down later when I have more time. I just want to reply to the part where you say I made a stupid comment yet follow it up by literally confirming and making my point. Championships are won by combining stars. There's no doubt Gobert is a star, although his numbers have dropped and he's never even been recognized as an all star. That said, if you had the chance to deal Gobert and add stars to this roster who are a better fit to better our championship chances, why wouldn't you?!?! You would. You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. Gobert is more replaceable than Jazz fans make him out to be. I'm saying this while he's my favorite player on the Jazz too. On this roster, he looks like a different player this year. You address this problem by changing the guys around him (like Favors) or him. It's not that crazy or moronic to say so. I appreciate your time and effort in explaining your point of view though. I give you way more props than others who type cliches and don't make any counter points but rather insult and inflate their own ego.
 
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Archie Moses said:
I'll break this down later when I have more time. I just want to reply to the part where you say I made a stupid comment yet follow it up by literally confirming and making my point. Championships are won by combining stars. There's no doubt Gobert is a star, although his numbers have dropped and he's never even been recognized as an all star. That said, if you had the chance to deal Gobert and add stars to this roster who are a better fit to better our championship chances, why wouldn't you?!?! You would. You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. Gobert is more replaceable than Jazz fans make him out to be. I'm saying this while he's my favorite player on the Jazz too. On this roster, he looks like a different player this year. You address this problem by changing the guys around him (like Favors) or him. It's not that crazy or moronic to say so. I appreciate your time and effort in explaining your point of view though. I give you way more props than others who type cliches and don't make any counter points but rather insult and inflate their own ego.
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I'm not seeing how we trade him for "star players"? That's not how trades work in the NBA. You'll never get equal value trading away Rudy. Getting a star like Gobert on a 4 year deal is the end game. You'll never trade him for two stars that make you championship competitive. Trading star players who have top 10-15 potential never nets even one better player within a 5 year stretch. I challenge you to find a trade like that ever. If there is one it was a very rare thing. You generally get a couple spins at the roulette draft wheel (not a great bet most of the time) and maybe some lesser players. And who are we trying to fit Rudy with that he doesn't fit with already? Favors? Rubio? Those guys aren't worth messing with Gobert. Mitchell? He seems like he can fit fine with Mitchell once DM gains a bit more experience. I just honestly don't understand where this idea comes from that Rudy needs to fit some average teammates games.

I'm trying to think of a single realistic trade that could get a better championship piece for Gobert and I can't think of one. If you have some please let me know. I think the wisest option (and what I think DL is clearly doing) is setting up maximum flexibility to somehow get a 3rd star in here in the next 2 years.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
I'm not seeing how we trade him for "star players"? That's not how trades work in the NBA. You'll never get equal value trading away Rudy. Getting a star like Gobert on a 4 year deal is the end game. You'll never trade him for two stars that make you championship competitive. Trading star players who have top 10-15 potential never nets even one better player within a 5 year stretch. I challenge you to find a trade like that ever. If there is one it was a very rare thing. You generally get a couple spins at the roulette draft wheel (not a great bet most of the time) and maybe some lesser players. And who are we trying to fit Rudy with that he doesn't fit with already? Favors? Rubio? Those guys aren't worth messing with Gobert. Mitchell? He seems like he can fit fine with Mitchell once DM gains a bit more experience. I just honestly don't understand where this idea comes from that Rudy needs to fit some average teammates games.

I'm trying to think of a single realistic trade that could get a better championship piece for Gobert and I can't think of one. If you have some please let me know. I think the wisest option (and what I think DL is clearly doing) is setting up maximum flexibility to somehow get a 3rd star in here in the next 2 years.
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Quin's Murderface said:
I'm not seeing how we trade him for "star players"? That's not how trades work in the NBA. You'll never get equal value trading away Rudy. Getting a star like Gobert on a 4 year deal is the end game. You'll never trade him for two stars that make you championship competitive. Trading star players who have top 10-15 potential never nets even one better player within a 5 year stretch. I challenge you to find a trade like that ever. If there is one it was a very rare thing. You generally get a couple spins at the roulette draft wheel (not a great bet most of the time) and maybe some lesser players. And who are we trying to fit Rudy with that he doesn't fit with already? Favors? Rubio? Those guys aren't worth messing with Gobert. Mitchell? He seems like he can fit fine with Mitchell once DM gains a bit more experience. I just honestly don't understand where this idea comes from that Rudy needs to fit some average teammates games.

I'm trying to think of a single realistic trade that could get a better championship piece for Gobert and I can't think of one. If you have some please let me know. I think the wisest option (and what I think DL is clearly doing) is setting up maximum flexibility to somehow get a 3rd star in here in the next 2 years.
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That's not how trades work in the NBA, eh? Do you want a list? Seriously, though. Do you want a list.
 
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Just in terms of the point which is being made by describing the gaining or trading for stars to win a chip, which in its simplest form makes sense and logic, I feel like it doesn't paint the whole picture because it's not a guarantee, which leads me to the point I made earlier about the last 30 years in the NBA.

What the NBA has taught me, for a massive majority of past chip winners in the last 30 years, is that it's not necessarily enough to just combine star players. The winners during that period, almost all of them, have had a player/players that are carrying the 'one of the greatest ever' or 'the greatest ever' tag.

Lakers - Magic & Kareem, majority of people have these two as 2nd and 3rd greatest to ever play the game.

Celtics - Bird, until recently he was still probably the greatest SF ever, and still now top5 player of all time in people's books.

Pistons - this might be one of the only exceptions, and they did it twice.

Bulls - no words needed

Heat with Wade - arguably the 2nd/3rd greatest SG all time

Lakers again - Kobe/Shaq, top10 all time

Spurs - Duncan is classified greatest ever PF all time by many.

Even the mavs the one time - Dirk is rated as the greatest ever international player by many

LeBron top 5 all time

Curry/Klay greatest shooters in history, dubbed by many etc etc

So unless Mitchell or somebody else on the jazz now, or in the future becomes one of the greatest, winning is a very small chance. Even if by some miracle Rudy gets us a star or two, which I don't see, we could be competitive yes, but let's be clear, it would not be for that transcendent talent that is required.

Apologies about the essay but I had a lot of thoughts.
 
Dali said:
Just in terms of the point which is being made by describing the gaining or trading for stars to win a chip, which in its simplest form makes sense and logic, I feel like it doesn't paint the whole picture because it's not a guarantee, which leads me to the point I made earlier about the last 30 years in the NBA.

What the NBA has taught me, for a massive majority of past chip winners in the last 30 years, is that it's not necessarily enough to just combine star players. The winners during that period, almost all of them, have had a player/players that are carrying the 'one of the greatest ever' or 'the greatest ever' tag.

Lakers - Magic & Kareem, majority of people have these two as 2nd and 3rd greatest to ever play the game.

Celtics - Bird, until recently he was still probably the greatest SF ever, and still now top5 player of all time in people's books.

Pistons - this might be one of the only exceptions, and they did it twice.

Bulls - no words needed

Heat with Wade - arguably the 2nd/3rd greatest SG all time

Lakers again - Kobe/Shaq, top10 all time

Spurs - Duncan is classified greatest ever PF all time by many.

Even the mavs the one time - Dirk is rated as the greatest ever international player by many

LeBron top 5 all time

Curry/Klay greatest shooters in history, dubbed by many etc etc

So unless Mitchell or somebody else on the jazz now, or in the future becomes one of the greatest, winning is a very small chance. Even if by some miracle Rudy gets us a star or two, which I don't see, we could be competitive yes, but let's be clear, it would not be for that transcendent talent that is required.

Apologies about the essay but I had a lot of thoughts.
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I think Rudy being one of the most impactful defensive presences ever qualifies him as belonging on the list versus some random draft pick or someone that puts up 17 points a game.
 
Dali said:
Just in terms of the point which is being made by describing the gaining or trading for stars to win a chip, which in its simplest form makes sense and logic, I feel like it doesn't paint the whole picture because it's not a guarantee, which leads me to the point I made earlier about the last 30 years in the NBA.

What the NBA has taught me, for a massive majority of past chip winners in the last 30 years, is that it's not necessarily enough to just combine star players. The winners during that period, almost all of them, have had a player/players that are carrying the 'one of the greatest ever' or 'the greatest ever' tag.

Lakers - Magic & Kareem, majority of people have these two as 2nd and 3rd greatest to ever play the game.

Celtics - Bird, until recently he was still probably the greatest SF ever, and still now top5 player of all time in people's books.

Pistons - this might be one of the only exceptions, and they did it twice.

Bulls - no words needed

Heat with Wade - arguably the 2nd/3rd greatest SG all time

Lakers again - Kobe/Shaq, top10 all time

Spurs - Duncan is classified greatest ever PF all time by many.

Even the mavs the one time - Dirk is rated as the greatest ever international player by many

LeBron top 5 all time

Curry/Klay greatest shooters in history, dubbed by many etc etc

So unless Mitchell or somebody else on the jazz now, or in the future becomes one of the greatest, winning is a very small chance. Even if by some miracle Rudy gets us a star or two, which I don't see, we could be competitive yes, but let's be clear, it would not be for that transcendent talent that is required.

Apologies about the essay but I had a lot of thoughts.
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You really reached for that Dallas and Miami one.
 
Numberica - if that being the case, then even more reason not to let him go.

Cy - I stand by the opinion that Wade is one of the greatest ever SG's, do you not? I think it's also fair that dirk might be best int player of all time, but it also took one of the worst superstar player performances of all time from LeBron which was also a factor. I didn't think they were a big reach.
 
Don't know how this will be taken. Rudy is not playing with the intensity he has played with in past seasons. I even saw him smiling last game. Maybe it is the injury or the contract, but he definitely is not playing as hard as previous seasons.
 
Archie Moses said:
Dude, we can start with the Jazz trading Deron Williams to the Nets.
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So you are saying Derrick Favors and eventually Enes Kanter ended up being as good or better than Deron Williams?

Really?

I was for that trade, but I thought Favors would pan out better than just a solid starter.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
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