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Science vs. Creationism

I find these debates about evolution fascinating in a way. People with no scientific training, or no training in the relevant scientific fields, talking authoritatively about what the relevant science is and why the overwhelming percentage of scientists with the relevant scientific training are wrong.

Do these same people on going into surgery deign to tell their surgeon how to do it? Or do they try to argue with structural engineers about how to design bridges? What is it about evolution relative to other sciences that turns so many lay people so suddenly into scientific experts?

....we don't have to tell surgeons where to find a certain body part......because the body was intelligently designed so that those body parts are always in the same place on every single human being! Now, if the human body was the result of evolutionary chance.....no telling where they would have to look to find your brain!
 
....we don't have to tell surgeons where to find a certain body part......because the body was intelligently designed so that those body parts are always in the same place on every single human being! Now, if the human body was the result of evolutionary chance.....no telling where they would have to look to find your brain!

Non sequitur.
 
Non sequitur.

Negative! The human body illustrates this. Its organs are always found in the same location, and all of the external body members are arranged symmetrically. Imagine the chaos in the practice of medicine, and especially surgery, if a person’s appendix could not be counted upon to be in the same place as that of others! What if one’s legs were customarily of differing lengths? However, this is not the case. A designer with the authority to do so has already standardized our bodies for us. The Bible psalmist David said in admiration: “And in your book all its parts were down in writing.” (Ps. 139:14-16)
 
Negative! The human body illustrates this. Its organs are always found in the same location, and all of the external body members are arranged symmetrically. Imagine the chaos in the practice of medicine, and especially surgery, if a person’s appendix could not be counted upon to be in the same place as that of others! What if one’s legs were customarily of differing lengths? However, this is not the case. A designer with the authority to do so has already standardized our bodies for us. The Bible psalmist David said in admiration: “And in your book all its parts were down in writing.” (Ps. 139:14-16)

Wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situs_ambiguus (random, or ambiguous).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situs_inversus (mirrored)

The reason the 1st is so rare, is because it often results in severe health problems-- which is an argument for evolution in and of itself.
 
....we don't have to tell surgeons where to find a certain body part......because the body was intelligently designed so that those body parts are always in the same place on every single human being! Now, if the human body was the result of evolutionary chance.....no telling where they would have to look to find your brain!

And the fact that you use the phrase 'evolutionary chance' in the context you use it demonstrates that you really don't know what evolution (natural selection) is or how it works.

Your reply does nothing at all to address my point. Here you are, obviously a total and complete layman where it comes to evolutionary science (perhaps getting most of your info on it from right wing or Christian blogs) deigning to criticize the scientific experts in the field on a topic in which there is near unanimity among these same experts. What makes you a more reliable expert on this topic than the consensus among the relevant scientific experts?

You'll forgive me if I find the consensus of scientific experts more compelling than the discussion board rants of a layman whose views on the topic are informed by political and/or religious ideology.
 
Wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situs_inversus (mirrored)

The reason the 1st is so rare, is because it often results in severe health problems-- which is an argument for evolution in and of itself.

"Situs inversus is thought to be present in 0.01% of the population, or a 1 in 10,000 chance."

....you guys love to play those "long odds" don't ya? Julian Huxley, who, it is said--and he of all things a "bastion of the theory of evolution"--determined that "the odds of the evolution of the horse were 1 in 1000 to the power of 1,000,000." One might immediately wonder how someone who believed this could still be a defender of evolution--after all, if those really were the odds against the evolution of the horse, who would buy evolution as a sensible explanation?


"A proportion of favorable mutations of one in a thousand does not sound much, but is probably generous . . And a total of a million mutational steps sounds a great deal but is probably an understatement.. However, let us take these figures as being reasonable estimates. With this proportion, but without any selection, we should clearly have to breed a million strains (a thousand squared) to get one containing two favorable mutations; and so on, up to a thousand to the millionth power to get one containing a million. Of course this could not really happen, but it is a useful way of visualizing the fantastic odds against getting a number of favorable mutations in one strain through pure chance alone. A thousand to the millionth power, when written out, becomes the figure 1 with three million noughts after it; and that would take three large volumes of about 500 pages each, just to print) . . No one would bet on anything so improbable happening. And yet it has happened) It has happened, thanks to the working of natural selection and the properties of living substance which make natural selection inevitable)" *Julian Huxley, Evolution in Action (1953), p. 41.

Five favorable mutations could never occur within the lifetime of an individual yet billions would have had to occur within a few minutes in order for it to survive!

"The frequency with which a single non harmful mutation is known to once mutate is about 1 in 1000. The probability that two favorable mutations would occur is 1 in 103 X 10', in a million. Studies of Drosophila have revealed that large numbers of genes are involved in the formation of the separate structural elements. There may be 30,E involved in a single wing structure. It is moat unlikely that fewer than five genders could ever be involved in the formation of even the simplest new structure, previously unknown in the organism. The probability now becomes one in one thousand million million. We already know that mutations in living cells appear once in ten million to once in one hundred thousand million. It is evident that the probability of five favorable mutations occurring within a single life cycle of an organism is effectively zero." *E. Ambrose, The Nature and Origin of the Biological World (1982), p. 120.
 
"Situs inversus is thought to be present in 0.01% of the population, or a 1 in 10,000 chance."

....you guys love to play those "long odds" don't ya?

Long odds? Are we supposed to ignore 712 000 in this world currently living in this world "who could cause chaos in the practice of medicine, and especially surgery, since a person's appendix could not be counted upon to be in the same place as that of others!"?


Focus, and stay on point. Better yet, start using a different justification of creationism, cuz I just proved your existing one wrong.
 
"the odds of the evolution of the horse were 1 in 1000 to the power of 1,000,000." One might immediately wonder how someone who believed this could still be a defender of evolution--after all, if those really were the odds against the evolution of the horse, who would buy evolution as a sensible explanation?

Why the confusing terminology, instead of saying 1 in 10 to power of three million?

You seem to think that 10^3000000 is some ridiculously big number. If you look at any blackjack table in any casino, the probability that some table will play that exact sequence of cards is a smaller probability, but no one thinks all the deals are rigged.

Five favorable mutations could never occur within the lifetime of an individual yet billions would have had to occur within a few minutes in order for it to survive!

Actually, they would occur over many generations.
 
Long odds? Are we supposed to ignore 712 000 in this world currently living in this world "who could cause chaos in the practice of medicine, and especially surgery, since a person's appendix could not be counted upon to be in the same place as that of others!"?

.....huh? You are one stupid dumb a$$ pseudo-intellectual college puke....that's all I got to say! Exactly how much marijuana did you actually smoke in school??? I suspect nobody can get any right now.....because you must have smoked all of it!!!
 
.....huh? You are one stupid dumb a$$ pseudo-intellectual college puke....that's all I got to say! Exactly how much marijuana did you actually smoke in school??? I suspect nobody can get any right now.....because you must have smoked all of it!!!

I just love how one religious person is treating other religious person. You sure seem to follow Bible's recommendations about treating others well and with respect.
 
....we don't have to tell surgeons where to find a certain body part......because the body was intelligently designed so that those body parts are always in the same place on every single human being!

Good one!!! Just when I thought you reached peak of your darkness you keep outdoing yourself. I can't wait for another one coming. What's next?
 
There has to be an invisible sun, it gives its heat to everyone.
There has to be an invisible sun, that gives us hope when the whole day's done
 
Negative! The human body illustrates this. Its organs are always found in the same location, and all of the external body members are arranged symmetrically. Imagine the chaos in the practice of medicine, and especially surgery, if a person’s appendix could not be counted upon to be in the same place as that of others! What if one’s legs were customarily of differing lengths? However, this is not the case. A designer with the authority to do so has already standardized our bodies for us. The Bible psalmist David said in admiration: “And in your book all its parts were down in writing.” (Ps. 139:14-16)

Since anecdotal evidence is more relevant here(for some backward *** reason) I can tell you that my grandmother had 4 kidneys. I guess you'll respond that her two extra kidneys were right where they were supposed to be. lol
 
I just love how one religious person is treating other religious person. You sure seem to follow Bible's recommendations about treating others well and with respect.

....yeah, I was off base. Shouldn't have lost my temper! I apologize to dalamon.
 
I can tell you that my grandmother had 4 kidneys. I guess you'll respond that her two extra kidneys were right where they were supposed to be. lol


....probably one of those 1 in a 1,000,000 "beneficial mutations!" She was about to evolve into a Dilophosaurus!
 
.....huh? You are one stupid dumb a$$ pseudo-intellectual college puke....that's all I got to say! Exactly how much marijuana did you actually smoke in school??? I suspect nobody can get any right now.....because you must have smoked all of it!!!

I've never smoked marijuana a single time in my entire life. I don't drink alcohol either.

Try again.
 
y'all ought to take a field trip to chicago and see this, sounds interesting!

https://www.theatreinchicago.com/in-the-garden-a-darwinian-love-story/6317/

“In the Garden: A Darwinian Love Story”

Lookingglass Theatre
821 N Michigan Ave Chicago

Long before The Origin of Species will forever change the world, Charles Darwin meets Emma Wedgewood and they forever change each other. In the space between science and faith, they find an unexpected and unlikely romance. In the Garden chronicles the struggle of two fiercely independent individuals, divided by ideology but united by a fire that fuels a passionate lifelong debate: evolution vs. salvation. Only by embracing this duality can they possibly navigate the struggles, triumphs, losses and discoveries that await.

some reviews...

Chicago Tribune - Somewhat Recommended

"...All in all, and I've saved this for last, the chief asset of "In the Garden" is Andrew White, whose performance as Darwin deftly captures the idea of the reluctant revolutionary, the self-doubting, publicity-averse scientist who just wanted to find evidence and apply potential proofs and who did not really want to get into the idea of God at all, although he of course had no choice. This is a very wise, kind and fundamentally generous performance; White lets Spence, whose performance is bolder and broader, take much of the focus, which creates a dynamic interesting, honest and thankfully, unexpected."

Chicago Reader - Somewhat Recommended

"...Gmitter and Thebus do try. They pack the evening with lots of biblical symbols. The play begins with a young girl haltingly reading the first few lines from the King James version of the Book of Genesis ("In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth . . . "), followed by a brief scene in which a young Darwin observes the animals in his garden before being interrupted by a young girl (Emma) who enters and distracts him. Clearly he is supposed to be Adam and she Eve. But what is Eden? Their innocent childhood? The uncomplicated world before Darwin's theories shook us out of our dogmatic slumber?"

ChicagoCritic - Highly Recommended

"...In the Garden is a worthy play that combines the story of a world changing scientist who was able to maintain a romance with his wife despite their religious differences. In the Victorian Era, as today, that is hard to deal with. This work is intellectually stimulating yet wholesomely a romantic love story and a fine family drama. The powerful test of the family resolve with Anna's illness is a heart wrenching testimony to family love. In the Garden is a wonderful drama that begs to be seen."

https://blog.conciergepreferred.com/chicago/inside-garden-darwinian-love-story/

The play would’ve failed if you found yourself siding with Darwin because you believe in his science or Emma because you believe in creation. It is Sara Gmitter’s writing and Andrew White and Rebecca Spence’s acting that can make those who might’ve come in with strong convictions begin to understand the other side. White plays Darwin’s curiosity and fervor for science so well that it makes you want to leave the theatre and write observations in red notebooks as Darwin had done. Spence’s portrayal of Emma might be the standout as few people know about Emma’s life, and her support of her husband while having differing ideals is something to be admired. The acting was so good that the majority of the audience was sniffling and grabbing tissue so audibly that it even became a distraction for me.

The performance is definitely a must see for all audiences no matter your beliefs because it is probably one of the greatest love stories that we can all learn from.
 
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....yeah, I was off base. Shouldn't have lost my temper! I apologize to dalamon.

shaq-finally-gets-it-shaq-gifs.gif
 
Arguing with creationists sometimes reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcPfWt0l0V8
 
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