Seeing AL Objectively - SLCdunk article

[orangello]

Inform yourself. Elite players get paid $17-20 million. With the # of years Jefferson has in the league he gets paid more than young guys. But I will admit that $13-15 is generous (I was using pre-CBA numbers.) Let's take it to $10-$14 million (I really don't know where the mark is set nowadays, but if Kris Humphries is getting $12 million, Big Al is a bargain at $13...Then again, the Nets are idiots so we shouldn't really use them as an example.)

https://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

@NAOS- what do you have a problem with? My assessment of Kanter (I won't back down from that) or of Big Al's worth (I could be wrong, but what do you think he's worth?)

That is my point. Other teams have overpaid for minimal production. I wouldn't mind signing Jefferson to a 4 year deal that starts around 13 million and then works it's way down 7.5% each year.

 

[franklin]

Would you chumps trade Jefferson for Hump, Marshon Brooks, Tyshawn Taylor & a future 1st?

Will, Johnson, Wallace, Jeff, Lopez could theoretically make a push if they could gel.

 

[NAOS]

Inform yourself. Elite players get paid $17-20 million. With the # of years Jefferson has in the league he gets paid more than young guys. But I will admit that $13-15 is generous (I was using pre-CBA numbers.) Let's take it to $10-$14 million (I really don't know where the mark is set nowadays, but if Kris Humphries is getting $12 million, Big Al is a bargain at $13...The again, the Nets are idiots so we shouldn't really use them as an example.)

https://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

@NAOS- what do you have a problem with? My assessment of Kanter (I won't back down from that) or of Big Al's worth (I could be wrong, but what do you think he's worth?)

your assessment of Al's value is ***********************************ed.

I wouldn't re-sign him for a nickel more than $7million + an understanding that he'd be the 6th man.

 

[orangello]

There's no doubt if stupid Kris Humphries is getting 12 million, then Jefferson is going to want more than that for sure.

Maybe the Nets are the leagues problem here, signing players to contracts they're not even close to worth.
The Gerald Wallace contract might be the reason we get screwed out of re-signing Millsap.

Yes to all of this. The Nets have overpaid big time and they will see the effects in about 2 seasons.

 

[JFFR]

@TheSilencer- I think you are right. I don't think the CBA really hurts a billionaire owner who is willing to pay his way for a championship. It will just hurt teams like the Jazz that can't afford to go over the cap anymore.

@organello- I 100% agree with you. I would love that contract. The only team I've seen do that is the Thunder and how they handled Collison. I think they gave him $10 million up front and now he's getting $2-3 million. It boggles my mind that players get paid by experience even though they get worse as they get older. There is no way that Kobe should be getting paid more now than what he got paid in his prime. Contracts go up ever year when they should really be going down.

 

[NAOS]

contracts structured like Collison's are not longer possible, fyi.

 

[orangello]

@organello- I 100% agree with you. I would love that contract. The only team I've seen do that is the Thunder and how they handled Collison. I think they gave him $10 million up front and now he's getting $2-3 million. It boggles my mind that players get paid by experience even though they get worse as they get older. There is no way that Kobe should be getting paid more now than what he got paid in his prime. Contracts go up ever year when they should really be going down.

We are seeing eye to eye now.

 

[orangello]

contracts structured like Collison's are not longer possible, fyi.

Hence why I said that it should be a contract that goes down by 7.5% every year for 4 years.

 

[NAOS]

Hence why I said that it should be a contract that goes down by 7.5% every year for 4 years.

I don't know the finer details, but the sliding scale downwards doesn't necessarily change the cap hit.

This is all stupid anyway, because Al shouldn't be paid anywhere near what you and JFFR are quoting.

 

[Brown Notes]

It's up to the coaches to find ways to hide their players' weaknesses and exploit the advantages. Al cannot continue to be easily drawn out to the 3pt line and expected to quickly rotate again 15 feet. If he's a full time player Corbin has to keep him in towards the paint. Utah has got to use some zone concepts. When the opposing C trots out to the perimeter somebody has got to be switching.

 

[bjunior]

Next season is unique and may be the last one when we can keep these 4 guys together - Favors, Millsap, BigAl, Kanter.

That is deep. Just a few teams who can actually give us problems in the paint. And with new guys in town I think we can go far.

But with Corbin as a coach, I don't even want to think about what this team can actually do if it's coached right and smart.

 

[just because]

I did read the article earlier today. I feel like I should clarify something. I don't hate Big Al. He is most valuable when you have to have a bucket. Most of the time he can get that needed bucket. Also, Big Al is an above average man-on-man defender.

Here are my issues:

Black Hole- I'm not racist but there is no better way to describe it. He gets the ball, then he puts his head down and he goes to work. This is good and bad. More bad then good though. Basketball is a 5 man sport and often times last season if felt like a 5v1 game. It was not only frustrating to watch but boring to watch as well. I love ball movement and Jefferson is the complete opposite of ball movement.

Defensive Sieve- As I mentioned above he can play above average man-on-man defense. The problems start when the other team runs the pick and roll and roll and roll again. Teams have learned this simple flaw and they run it time and time again and Jefferson seems to forget that they other team ran the PnR the last time down the court and he also forgot how to defend it. One other thing, this did not happen frequently, but it is an issue nonetheless. Jefferson can become disinterested and that hurt both sides of the ball. He needs to be engaged the entire time that he is on the floor.

DITTO
and let me add that his help D is not good either.

I could easily love Al as much as the rest of the team if he would learn ball movement. I HATE when he gets the ball 15 feet out and goes 1 on 5 and puts up a contested shot. Yes, he is great at hanging on to the ball but a forced shot against a double or triple team is as good as a turn over in my book.

 

[orangello]

DITTO
and let me add that his help D is not good either.

I could easily love Al as much as the rest of the team if he would learn ball movement. I HATE when he gets the ball 15 feet out and goes 1 on 5 and puts up a contested shot. Yes, he is great at hanging on to the ball but a forced shot against a double or triple team is as good as a turn over in my book.

Thanks for adding to what I had said. I knew there was more that I needed to add but I couldn't remember what it was. I've been sick lately and haven't been able to completely think straight.

 

[franklin]

DITTO
and let me add that his help D is not good either.

I could easily love Al as much as the rest of the team if he would learn ball movement. I HATE when he gets the ball 15 feet out and goes 1 on 5 and puts up a contested shot. Yes, he is great at hanging on to the ball but a forced shot against a double or triple team is as good as a turn over in my book.

 

[Scorpjazz]

When posting this thread, it says objectively, so I have to also assign that objectivity to my view of Big Al. Yes, I have obviously defended him, probably over defended, but the hate he gets does drive me crazy. That being said, I do see the reasoning behind trying to trade him, but I just cant see throwing him away for a 2nd rounder (as someone suggested) or trash like that. I do think he is a good to above good player ( I didnt say great, lol) and happens to be our best player, IMO, at this moment.
However, with the other players we have and the youth we seem to be stockpiling, his game (Im taking a deep breath here) does not seem to fit with what we seem to be pushing towards. I do see how he stunts the other talent we have on the floor with the team as it is now.
I also think that some other team out there with a diferent makeup would see Big Al as a huge piece and we should look to try to tempt one of these teams into giving us at least a 1st rounder or talent equality.
Big AL is a great talent. However, and I am seeing this a bit more clearly now, his talent does not help the talent of the other guys on our team, it actually takes away from their natural abilities. His salary, whyile maybe earned due to his talent level, IMO, is not worth it to the Jazz going forward and either he has to submit to less money and a lesser role, which I doubt he would (same with Sap), or we should move him while he is healthy and others see him as a major cog to their system.
So in short, Im not turning into a Al hater, I still like the guy. BUT, he doesnt fit into what we need overall and is stunting the growth of the young guys we seem to be building our future on.
Funny that me posting this article in his defense and reading other's comments have gotten me to see this way.

 

[orangello]

When posting this thread, it says objectively, so I have to also assign that objectivity to my view of Big Al. Yes, I have obviously defended him, probably over defended, but the hate he gets does drive me crazy. That being said, I do see the reasoning behind trying to trade him, but I just cant see throwing him away for a 2nd rounder (as someone suggested) or trash like that. I do think he is a good to above good player ( I didnt say great, lol) and happens to be our best player, IMO, at this moment.
However, with the other players we have and the youth we seem to be stockpiling, his game (Im taking a deep breath here) does not seem to fit with what we seem to be pushing towards. I do see how he stunts the other talent we have on the floor with the team as it is now.
I also think that some other team out there with a diferent makeup would see Big Al as a huge piece and we should look to try to tempt one of these teams into giving us at least a 1st rounder or talent equality.
Big AL is a great talent. However, and I am seeing this a bit more clearly now, his talent does not help the talent of the other guys on our team, it actually takes away from their natural abilities. His salary, whyile maybe earned due to his talent level, IMO, is not worth it to the Jazz going forward and either he has to submit to less money and a lesser role, which I doubt he would (same with Sap), or we should move him while he is healthy and others see him as a major cog to their system.
So in short, Im not turning into a Al hater, I still like the guy. BUT, he doesnt fit into what we need overall and is stunting the growth of the young guys we seem to be building our future on.
Funny that me posting this article in his defense and reading other's comments have gotten me to see this way.

We are usually on the opposite side of the spectrum when it comes to Big Al. I appreciate what you have said here. Good work.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

When posting this thread, it says objectively, so I have to also assign that objectivity to my view of Big Al. Yes, I have obviously defended him, probably over defended, but the hate he gets does drive me crazy. That being said, I do see the reasoning behind trying to trade him, but I just cant see throwing him away for a 2nd rounder (as someone suggested) or trash like that. I do think he is a good to above good player ( I didnt say great, lol) and happens to be our best player, IMO, at this moment.
However, with the other players we have and the youth we seem to be stockpiling, his game (Im taking a deep breath here) does not seem to fit with what we seem to be pushing towards. I do see how he stunts the other talent we have on the floor with the team as it is now.
I also think that some other team out there with a diferent makeup would see Big Al as a huge piece and we should look to try to tempt one of these teams into giving us at least a 1st rounder or talent equality.
Big AL is a great talent. However, and I am seeing this a bit more clearly now, his talent does not help the talent of the other guys on our team, it actually takes away from their natural abilities. His salary, whyile maybe earned due to his talent level, IMO, is not worth it to the Jazz going forward and either he has to submit to less money and a lesser role, which I doubt he would (same with Sap), or we should move him while he is healthy and others see him as a major cog to their system.
So in short, Im not turning into a Al hater, I still like the guy. BUT, he doesnt fit into what we need overall and is stunting the growth of the young guys we seem to be building our future on.
Funny that me posting this article in his defense and reading other's comments have gotten me to see this way.

It takes a big man to change their opinion when faced with evidence to the contrary. You must be huge! Do you play ball? We have an opening at center.

 

[theNBAnerd]

In the end of the game ppp falls dramatically hence throwing the ball to someone scoring average consistently makes perfect sense.

you're suggesting that al's PPA doesn't fall at the end of the game too, which just isn't true.

Also, I did read your stuff Nerd, and yes, you make alot of points that are obviously valid. A few of your objective critiques of Jeff were ones refuted in that very post, however.

refuted weakly, sure. but again, i get that there are multiple valid ways to evaluate a player. i'm just saying that i don't really consider a point refuted when someone says, "well yeah, he does suck at that, but it's ok!"

We can sit here all day and debate the good and bad aspects of Al Jefferson, but to whom are we comparing him? Are we comparing him to the all-time greats, or to the other centers that are currently in the league? ...

So what this does is raise the question: who can we actually get to replace Al Jefferson -- who is better than him offensively and is a solid defensive player, and who we can afford?

have you heard of two guys named derrick favors and paul millsap? both better all-around big men than al jefferson. i might be crazy, but i think we could maybe get our hands on one or both of them.

 

[NotDeadYet]

I think what Al needs is to be impressed by his teamates to the point where he trusts them enough for him to pass the ball to them.

Absolutely true! Al wants to win, and knows he's the best option. Also an issue is his teammates failing to free up from their defender by actually MOVING. They too often stand and watch when Al has the ball.
It's easy for an opponent to guard a stuatue...

 

[billyshelby]

I don't think it's really possible to completely separate the objective from the subjective in the analysis of any player. But the purely objective analysis of Al is that he ranges anywhere from good to very good -- at the cusp of all star caliber, not in that elite class of player. I doubt any scout or NBA exec would disagree with that assessment.

Subjectively, however, I don't think there are many players who are so divisive (at least here). But what's confounding is the hyperbole about what a 'bad' player he is. Al's weaknesses are blown so out of proportion that you'd think he should only get 10 minutes a night.

I don't care if Al gets dealt so long as it's a good deal, or any player for that matter, but I do take issue with the absurdity of Al hate. Part of me wishes he will get dealt just so the "play Favors/Sap/Kanter" crowd can see what that would look like. It wouldn't be pretty.