What's new
By:

Separating the art from the artist

gandalfe

gandalfe

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I'm curious about this topic. Can we separate the art from the artist?

A number of artists of one form or another who I have enjoyed the works of, either their individual works (in the case of a writer or painter, as well as some musicians) or group works (band members, actors/directors, etc) have been denounced as doing things ranging from mildly s*****y to massively horrific. Can we still support their works, by buying their albums or seeing their movies? What about continuing to enjoy those things we already own but not giving them more money?

A by no means exhaustive list of those over the last few years that have come out and made me think about this, and not in any kind of rank:

Bill Cosby
Harvey Weinstein
Louis CK
Kevin Spacey
Joss Whedon
JK Rowling
Neil Gaiman
Ben Hopkins of PWR BTTM
Till Lindemann of Rammstein
Michael Jackson

In case you're not aware, the term "cancel" in the sense of cancel culture actually deems to be derived from this late disco track by CHIC:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mih9xvo7a8
 
I enjoy all sorts of art but I have almost zero interest in artists. I don't like a song better because the artist has similar political views as I do. Mostly because unless forced to know I will not know that. I mean I don't like Kid Rock and wouldn't intentionally listen to his music because he wasted a bunch of beer because he had a little baby fit over them having an endorsement he didn't like. I try to not be like Kid Rock in that example.

Now if an artist is at their core actually a political activist using their artistic talents to produce propaganda disguised as pop culture then I accept them on their own terms and reject their "art" if I reject their propaganda. If I agree with their propaganda I probably still would avoid favoring them.

It's an interesting topic.
 
Sardines said:
I enjoy all sorts of art but I have almost zero interest in artists. I don't like a song better because the artist has similar political views as I do. Mostly because unless forced to know I will not know that. I mean I don't like Kid Rock and wouldn't intentionally listen to his music because he wasted a bunch of beer because he had a little baby fit over them having an endorsement he didn't like. I try to not be like Kid Rock in that example.

Now if an artist is at their core actually a political activist using their artistic talents to produce propaganda disguised as pop culture then I accept them on their own terms and reject their "art" if I reject their propaganda. If I agree with their propaganda I probably still would avoid favoring them.

It's an interesting topic.
Click to expand...
Most of these people have been accused, some convicted, of at a minimum sexual impropriety.

JK Rowling is anti-trans people.
Joss Whedon has basically been accused of being an *******.
Louis CK asked multiple young women comics to watching him masturbate (never forced, if they said no he let it go, and he has admitted he did it.)
Michael Jackson... well, we all know about Michael Jackson. Same with Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein.

I guess what really has brought this to my mind is Neil Gaiman, because it's pretty current. He has been accused by multiple women of forcing them to have sexual relations with him, both young fans of his as well as employees of his. I was a big fan of his comics work, his novels are good to AMAZING, the shows he's worked on, while he's been on them, have been very good. Outside of that, he always projected a very feminist persona.
 
I dont think Louis CK belongs on the list. James Brown however, I struggle with him. Ryan Adams is another.

**** man Da Vinci was body snatching so he could cut people up and sketch them.
 
gandalfe said:
Most of these people have been accused, some convicted, of at a minimum sexual impropriety.

JK Rowling is anti-trans people.
Joss Whedon has basically been accused of being an *******.
Louis CK asked multiple young women comics to watching him masturbate (never forced, if they said no he let it go, and he has admitted he did it.)
Michael Jackson... well, we all know about Michael Jackson. Same with Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein.

I guess what really has brought this to my mind is Neil Gaiman, because it's pretty current. He has been accused by multiple women of forcing them to have sexual relations with him, both young fans of his as well as employees of his. I was a big fan of his comics work, his novels are good to AMAZING, the shows he's worked on, while he's been on them, have been very good. Outside of that, he always projected a very feminist persona.
Click to expand...

He was married to Amanda Palmer, they organised a new years party one night in Melbourne. I happened to be there. It was a strange evening, neither of them seemed to be in any conventional way normal, nor were they trying to be.

I would imagine working for either of them would not be for everyone.
 
Rubashov said:
I dont think Louis CK belongs on the list. James Brown however, I struggle with him. Ryan Adams is another.

**** man Da Vinci was body snatching so he could cut people up and sketch them.
Click to expand...
Well, after it came out, he was basically not working for several years - did a few gigs, but no hosting SNL, couldn't find distribution for his movie, his show was cancelled (altho it wasn't clear that he would have made another season anyway)...

Another one was Warren Ellis. Not the musician from the Bad Seeds, but the author/comic book writer. He basically used his position as a big time influential comic book guy to get laid, making women think that he was fully into a relationship with them, etc. Nothing non-consenual, just not entirely honest.

And, let's be real about something here. One of the reasons that people (especially men) want to be rich, famous, etc, is to get laid. I certainly don't judge people for that, but the way you do it matters.
 
Rubashov said:
He was married to Amanda Palmer, they organised a new years party one night in Melbourne. I happened to be there. It was a strange evening, neither of them seemed to be in any conventional way normal, nor were they trying to be.

I would imagine working for either of them would not be for everyone.
Click to expand...
Yeah, she's not coming off very well in the accusations, either. While they were separated, she sent this young woman, a friend who she had hired to be a nanny kind of thing, to his house to babysit, and specifically wrote him a note saying he couldn't **** her. But she didn't warn the young woman, and, well...
 
gandalfe said:
Well, after it came out, he was basically not working for several years - did a few gigs, but no hosting SNL, couldn't find distribution for his movie, his show was cancelled (altho it wasn't clear that he would have made another season anyway)...

Another one was Warren Ellis. Not the musician from the Bad Seeds, but the author/comic book writer. He basically used his position as a big time influential comic book guy to get laid, making women think that he was fully into a relationship with them, etc. Nothing non-consenual, just not entirely honest.

And, let's be real about something here. One of the reasons that people (especially men) want to be rich, famous, etc, is to get laid. I certainly don't judge people for that, but the way you do it matters.
Click to expand...

Nah Louis CK definitely got cancelled but I just don't think whatever he did was that wrong. Weird? No doubt but not strictly illegal.



Who could accuse this mad bastard of being a sex pest?

I read up on the comic book guy, 100 women? where does he get the energy?

gandalfe said:
Yeah, she's not coming off very well in the accusations, either. While they were separated, she sent this young woman, a friend who she had hired to be a nanny kind of thing, to his house to babysit, and specifically wrote him a note saying he couldn't **** her. But she didn't warn the young woman, and, well...
Click to expand...

Yeah it was a pretty odd vibe, 1930s Berlin Bohemia type vibe, drugs and naked people everywhere, they seemed to be very at home.
 
Um.... Puff daddy (or whatever he calls himself now) has to make the list.

One that stands out for me is trump. I couldn't separate the rape, crime, corruption, scandals, lies, and overall douchebaginess of the man from the poor job he did as president to be able to vote for or support him.
 
The Gaiman one is the first one to make me personally sad, as Sandman is such a big part of my history with comics, and I've enjoyed plenty of his short stories as well. Prior to that I've never really thought about the artist while enjoying most art. But I'm not sure I'll be able to do that with his stuff going forward. Guess I'm still working through it.

Agreed that, to the best of our knowledge, CK didn't deserve the reaction his situation got. The guy weirdly propositioned some folks and backed off when they declined. Who cares.
 
gandalfe said:
Outside of that, he always projected a very feminist persona.
Click to expand...
So did they all. Male feminists are snakes.

In the music thread, a video of Lambrini Girls' Big Dick Energy was posted. Great track. There are a number of lines specifically targeting male feminists with "Your woke persona is completely ****ing terrifying" being the most blunt.

Here is the track again, because it is phenomenal:


And JK Rowling doesn't belong on this list of people who have used their power to coerce sex acts.
 
“I made more movies directed by women and about women than any film-maker, and I’m talking about 30 years ago. I’m not talking about now when it’s vogue. I did it first. I pioneered it."
-Harvey Weinstein, male feminist
 
It’s a tough line to draw. Art connects with us on such deep levels that it’s hard to separate the two.

When it comes to art I believe most of the really good stuff comes from pain, guilt, shame, anger, regret, all the negative emotions. It shapes the artist and is in many cases their ultimate undoing. Some do awful things and are awful people. But aren’t we all awful to some degree?

We’re lucky if an artist lives long enough to disappoint us. Being a piece of **** is part of the human experience and art does don’t discriminate. Art imitates life yada yada.

I’ve found that while those bad things make me feel a little different about the artist as a person. But I don’t know them. I like their creations and know their ****ed up trauma is what births a lot of the great stuff. I remember the connections, experiences, and emotions their art makes me feel. But I guess it depends on what they did too? Like everyone makes mistakes, but did they repent and make amends? Was what they did even true? I guess it depends. If you rape or kill someone I don’t think I would like it in the first place, but I would not like it after learning of something that bad.

I also make art and know many artists so I’m biased. But you can’t really separate the two completely, but understand it’s part of what made it great in the first place. It depends on how big a piece of **** you are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
fishonjazz said:
Um.... Puff daddy (or whatever he calls himself now) has to make the list.

One that stands out for me is trump. I couldn't separate the rape, crime, corruption, scandals, lies, and overall douchebaginess of the man from the poor job he did as president to be able to vote for or support him.
Click to expand...
I thought about listing P. Diddly, but, honestly, I have no real connection to his music.

You can call Trump many things, and lord knows I have, but one of them is not "artist."
 
Eminence said:
The Gaiman one is the first one to make me personally sad, as Sandman is such a big part of my history with comics, and I've enjoyed plenty of his short stories as well. Prior to that I've never really thought about the artist while enjoying most art. But I'm not sure I'll be able to do that with his stuff going forward. Guess I'm still working through it.

Agreed that, to the best of our knowledge, CK didn't deserve the reaction his situation got. The guy weirdly propositioned some folks and backed off when they declined. Who cares.
Click to expand...
Fun fact: I'm actually listed in the "Thank Yous" in Preludes & Nocturnes. You know the original inker (who took over pencils after a few issues), Mike Dringenberg, is from Utah, right?

The first work of both Gaiman & Pratchett that I read was Good Omens. I swear, if anything negative comes out about Terry Pratchett, I'm just going to give up on humanity.
 
gandalfe said:
I thought about listing P. Diddly, but, honestly, I have no real connection to his music.

You can call Trump many things, and lord knows I have, but one of them is not "artist."
Click to expand...
"art" of the deal?
What about all the **** he throws at the wall? Not art?
 
gandalfe said:
Fun fact: I'm actually listed in the "Thank Yous" in Preludes & Nocturnes. You know the original inker (who took over pencils after a few issues), Mike Dringenberg, is from Utah, right?

The first work of both Gaiman & Pratchett that I read was Good Omens. I swear, if anything negative comes out about Terry Pratchett, I'm just going to give up on humanity.
Click to expand...

That's pretty cool. I did not know that, but I'm not a Utahan (what do y'all call yourselves?). I'm an Iowegian currently.

Yeah, Pratchett would be awfully upsetting as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top