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Should Mitt release his tax returns?

Revolution 9 said:
Just wondering who Salty, and Stoked have voted for the last 3-4 elections...?
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I have swallowed my bile and voted for McCain.. Didn't vote in Gore Bush and Bush/Kerry much to my chagrin. In my defense though I was out of the country durring the 2000 Elections.

I hate the Dems positions on unions, race, economics, gun rights, immigration. I hate repub stances on gay rights, immigration, and frankly most social issue across the board. God if I could only mix and match...
 
Stoked said:
I hear about furloughs and firings and not replacing losses every fall at my job. Been there done that. You want guarantees that life will work out for the best and that government will take care of me. Hell no I say. I can take care of myself. I do not need government controling everything I do.
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Getting laid off and finding a new job when business is slow is one thing. Watching every job you could possibly apply for vanish because they do it for $1.00 per hour in China is different.

Everyone always hears about possibly downsizing when goals aren't met and revenue is low. Not everyone watches the whole company up and move to China though, with every other company that does the same thing moving right along with them.

It's pretty rare to find something made in America these days. It's also pretty rare to call customer service and get an American. And computer programming is rapidly becoming that way too. If this was just due to goals not being met so the company downsized, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everyone could just go get another job someplace else, and/or reapply when business picked up. But in this case the jobs are just gone, permanently. SO not only is there no place to work, but there are more people applying for the fewer and fewer jobs.

I hope you never have to experience that, but I'm confident that if you did you would think outsourcing was a bigger problem than you currently do.
 
SaltyDawg said:
Getting laid off and finding a new job when business is slow is one thing. Watching every job you could possibly apply for vanish because they do it for $1.00 per hour in China is different.

Everyone always hears about possibly downsizing when goals aren't met and revenue is low. Not everyone watches the whole company up and move to China though, with every other company that does the same thing moving right along with them.

It's pretty rare to find something made in America these days. It's also pretty rare to call customer service and get an American. And computer programming is rapidly becoming that way too. If this was just due to goals not being met so the company downsized, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everyone could just go get another job someplace else, and/or reapply when business picked up. But in this case the jobs are just gone, permanently. SO not only is there no place to work, but there are more people applying for the fewer and fewer jobs.

I hope you never have to experience that, but I'm confident that if you did you would think outsourcing was a bigger problem than you currently do.
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Exaggeration for the win!
 
SaltyDawg said:
It's actually not much of an exaggeration, lol. They are working for around $1.00 in some places.
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I didn't mean that part so much as yes they are. I mean the every job you could possibly apply for part.
 
Stoked said:
I didn't mean that part so much as yes they are. I mean the every job you could possibly apply for part.
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Oh, yeah, that was an exaggeration. But also not so much.

Think about it like this... You work in a call center in a small town in Missouri. You make about $18-$20 per hour, with a 401k, decent medical insurance, and all the basics you expect from a middle class job.

You come to work one day and find out everyone is getting laid off. The company has decided to outsource the department to some other company, and the new company's call center will be in India.

So now, in your small town, there are 100 people all applying for the same jobs as you. And there aren't many jobs to go around anyway.

You have a mortgage to pay, and a wife with 2 or 3 kids to support. You can't be out of work.

Some other company is hiring customer service reps in the area. They are aware of the call center closing, so they are low balling. They are only paying $10 per hour, crappy benefits, and horrible hours. The 100 or so others that got laid off with you are jumping on this opportunity, because there is literally nothing else in the area.

What do you do? Do you take the job?

And then when this company outsources their call center in a year, what do you do then?

The obvious answer is go back to school. But then what about paying your mortgage and feeding your kids? Not to mention if all of these people did go get reeducated then there wouldn't be enough jobs to go around in other fields. It's not like any companies are having trouble filling positions right now in any field.

Getting another job may always be an option. Getting another job that pays enough with good enough benefits is almost never an option.

It's an option most of the time if you got laid off due to a slow period. But if you got laid off because the company decided to pay $1.00 per hour to some hut dwellers in India, then you can bet a lot of other companies will also be looking for that cost savings.

In this case, it's not a matter of "we like you but we don't have the money." It's more like, "we have the money, but our #1 goal is to make as much money as possible, and the Indians are a lot cheaper." Or, "we can't compete against the competition because they are paying so much less for labor. We have to outsource to get our costs down, or their lower prices will run us out of business."

This is pretty much exactly what is happening to a lot of call center, manufacturing, and computer programming jobs. And in most cases, there is either no other job to apply for, or at the very best a substantially worse job that requires a total change in your lifestyle.
 
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Stoked said:
I hear about furloughs and firings and not replacing losses every fall at my job. Been there done that. You want guarantees that life will work out for the best and that government will take care of me. Hell no I say. I can take care of myself. I do not need government controling everything I do.
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This is called promoting an ideology without using any common sense and living in anywhere else other than a place called reality.

Using the tax code and other ways to encourage businesses to come here while punishing those who leave is just plain smart.

Anyone that believes that they can outsource their manufacturing and service bases while continuously rewarding businesses who leave without incurring higher unemployment, a drop in wages, and a dip in quality of life is gravely mistaken.

And this whole, "Well, sucks for you but I'm fine" attitude that Stoked displayed? Yeah, that's basically been proven wrong in almost every occurrence in history.
 
The Thriller said:
This is called promoting an ideology without using any common sense and living in anywhere else other than a place called reality.

Using the tax code and other ways to encourage businesses to come here while punishing those who leave is just plain smart.

Anyone that believes that they can outsource their manufacturing and service bases while continuously rewarding businesses who leave without incurring higher unemployment, a drop in wages, and a dip in quality of life is gravely mistaken.

And this whole, "Well, sucks for you but I'm fine" attitude that Stoked displayed? Yeah, that's basically been proven wrong in almost every occurrence in history.
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I think you are mentally delayed.
 
Stoked said:
I think you are mentally delayed.
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Good one.

Anyway, so I believe the biggest lie being perpetuated in today's "fair and balanced" media is that we have too much government in our lives. We need to hand over more of this power to the "free market."

This is laughable. What economic power today has less government in our lives than we do? Yet, we're the one in greatest decline... China, Germany, and Brazil all have much more government intrusion. Japan, W. Europe, and Canada have more "government" in their lives. If you look at the countries that were hurt hurt the least from this crisis, Canada and Brazil, they recovered well because of their tightly regulated banking system.

In reality, we need much more government in our lives.

It wasn't too much government that led to our 08 crash.
It wasn't too much government that led to banks "Too big to fail."
It wasn't too much government that forced banks to give out bad loans... Or for Wall Street to play with our money.
It wasn't the "free market" that saved Detroit. If anything, it was lack of government to show Detroit the way. Had back in the 70s or 80s the government forced Detroit to produce better quality and fuel efficient cars, how much better off would we be today?
It wasn't too much government that outsourced our manufacturing base. Had government protected it, perhaps our Great Lakes region wouldn't be such a dump.
It's not too much government that keeps the south a mess. And certainly the free market isn't helping those people out of poverty.
It wasn't "too many" government regulations that led to BP's spill. It was lack of regulations and enforcement of them.
It wasn't too much government that caused JP Morgan to lose $5 billion recently.
It's not too much government that has led to a failing health care system, but lack of government.

the ironic thing I find is that the party that screams loudest against government intrusion is the quickest to demand the government regulate video games, marriage, and liquor.
While this party acts as if programs for the people, such as SS, Medicaid, Medicare, Pell Grants, etc are all failures handled by a clumsy and pathetic entity, they give a blank check to the military (which is part of this same "clumsy" government). While every penny for domestic programs is being scrutinized they ignore the billions being flushed down the toilet in foreign wars. And if any war or project or building of a jet is questioned, they criticize you and label you "unamerican."

The states that rant about federal government are almost always the first ones with their hands open ready for handouts (states like Utah and Texas).

It's pretty obvious to me what we need to do.

Pull out of these wars. Close half the bases around the world. Slash defense spending by at least 1/3rd (of course, Boehner won't like that since his state benefits greatly from building jets that even the military doesn't want). Raise taxes on the rich. Add tariffs for imports. Give tax cuts for companies to move here. Get rid of our failed HC system which costs far more than any other system in the world. Tightly regulate the banking industry.

Brazil, Canada, and Germany have all given us models from developing our economy, protecting it, and practicing good modern HC. We should follow them.
 
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TLDR but you should be used to that since you do not read the full replies people give to you anyways. Cheers!
 
northeast said:
you were the one who was implying that the current system is set up to have the interests of the executives well aligned with the interests of the stockholders, and it is the responsibility of the shareholders to keep this system in line , etc.

these thoughts run through several posts, excuse me for not spending any more time documenting your evolving philosophies...

if you are now conceding that overpaid executives make ridiculous pay packages stuffed with stock options that benefit from fluctuations in stock prices , and compensation is very loosely related to the value added at best , drawing resources from the corporations and the general economy into the executive pockets, with individual stockholders or the general public having practically no oversight or input , then we are in alliance.
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northeast said:
liar, it is in their interest to drive the price of the stock down, and give themselves millions of options, and then let the market give them free billions for sitting on their butts and enjoying their expense accounts, all of which is taken from the holdings of the true investors
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They give themselves millions of options and then drive down the price so those options are worthless? You give genius a whole new meaning.
 
The Thriller said:
Good one.

Anyway, so I believe the biggest lie being perpetuated in today's "fair and balanced" media is that we have too much government in our lives. We need to hand over more of this power to the "free market."

This is laughable. What economic power today has less government in our lives than we do? Yet, we're the one in greatest decline... China, Germany, and Brazil all have much more government intrusion. Japan, W. Europe, and Canada have more "government" in their lives. If you look at the countries that were hurt hurt the least from this crisis, Canada and Brazil, they recovered well because of their tightly regulated banking system.

In reality, we need much more government in our lives.

It wasn't too much government that led to our 08 crash.
It wasn't too much government that led to banks "Too big to fail."
It wasn't the "free market" that saved Detroit.
It wasn't "too many" government regulations that led to BP's spill. It was lack of regulations and enforcement of them.
It wasn't too much government that caused JP Morgan to lose $5 billion recently.
It's not too much government that has led to a failing health care system, but lack of government.

the ironic thing I find is that the party that screams loudest against government intrusion is the quickest to demand the government regulate video games, marriage, and liquor.
While this party acts as if programs for the people, such as SS, Medicaid, Medicare, Pell Grants, etc are all failures handled by a clumsy and pathetic entity, they give a blank check to the military (which is part of this same "clumsy" government). While every penny for domestic programs is being scrutinized they ignore the billions being flushed down the toilet in foreign wars. And if any war or project or building of a jet is questioned, they criticize you and label you "unamerican."

It's pretty obvious to me what we need to do.

Pull out of these wars. Close half the bases around the world. Slash defense spending by at least 1/3rd (of course, Boehner won't like that since his state benefits greatly from building jets that even the military doesn't want). Raise taxes on the rich. Add tariffs for imports. Give tax cuts for companies to move here. Get rid of our failed HC system which costs far more than any other system in the world. Tightly regulate the banking industry.

Brazil, Canada, and Germany have all given us models from developing our economy, protecting it, and practicing good modern HC. We should follow them.
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This country is made up of people that love the benefits of less government and reliance on the free market system - but as soon as the free market system starts correcting things, they scream and holler for more government to mitigate the damage.

With great risk comes either great rewards, or great loss. We can't have the great rewards without the possibility of great loss.

Subsequently, the more we institutionalize against the free market, the more we are limiting the reward we may experience.

I disagree with you.
 
leftyjace said:
This country is made up of people that love the benefits of less government and reliance on the free market system - but as soon as the free market system starts correcting things, they scream and holler for more government to mitigate the damage.

With great risk comes either great rewards, or great loss. We can't have the great rewards without the possibility of great loss.

Subsequently, the more we institutionalize against the free market, the more we are limiting the reward we may experience.

I disagree with you.
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Yep. And I thought you would.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

handshake
 
The Thriller said:
And this whole, "Well, sucks for you but I'm fine" attitude that Stoked displayed? Yeah, that's basically been proven wrong in almost every occurrence in history.
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This made me think I should point out, I am fine in my job. My agenda in this is only self serving in the sense that I care about America, and the people that call America home.

This famous quote comes to mind:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."
 
SaltyDawg said:
This made me think I should point out, I am fine in my job. My agenda in this is only self serving in the sense that I care about America, and the people that call America home.

This famous quote comes to mind:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."
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I see the point you are trying to make but I do not feel it applies here. Socialist's ideas are terrible for this country. Unions (generally speaking) have gotten out of control and need to be checked. BUt if they started killign them in death camps, deporting them, seizing their property enmass...I can guarantee you I'd be speaking out.
 
Stoked said:
I see the point you are trying to make but I do not feel it applies here. Socialist's ideas are terrible for this country. Unions (generally speaking) have gotten out of control and need to be checked. BUt if they started killign them in death camps, deporting them, seizing their property enmass...I can guarantee you I'd be speaking out.
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Well it would never start out with such an obvious red flag. BY the time it got to that level, it would be too late.

Have you seen/read Animal Farm?
 
SaltyDawg said:
Well it would never start out with such an obvious red flag. BY the time it got to that level, it would be too late.

Have you seen/read Animal Farm?
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No I have not. I will look into that.

In todays social media I am sure that someone somewhere will manage to get the word out. But yes I think the general populace tends to get to complacent and not rilled up at the appropriate times.

I have the feeling that could change shortly. (shortly = about 2 years)
 
SaltyDawg said:
Well it would never start out with such an obvious red flag. BY the time it got to that level, it would be too late.

Have you seen/read Animal Farm?
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Animal Farm... the Jungle... hell, I've read Marx's Das Kapital in its entirety.

Still an Austrian economist, and simply can't understand socialistic mentalities.
 
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