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Should Teacher Tenure Be Abolished?

Never did take a class called Analogies 101, but if you think making an assumption about something with one day's experience is analogous to spending 13 years immersed in something, and then commenting on it, I would have to disagree with you.

You missed the analogy because of the percent of time dealing with the experience in question. Making a comment about the weather in Alaska while experiencing said weather less than .00...01 percent of its existence is as illegitimate as making a comment about all the teachers in the U.S. while experiencing less than .00...01 percent of them.
 
Ya no duh it's personal, Einstein. This is my life and my career you inconsiderate chucklehead. And when I see some lamer spouting off and spewing BS I will put him down like a sick dog.

Class dismissed, Ol Yeller.

Out of curiosity, what did I say that was so inconsiderate? What did I say that you consider to be BS? You'll note that when I actually asked you directly what it was I was wrong about, or why -- you went straight to the personal attacks, rather than continuing the conversation in a normal way. Is there some reason why that is, other than because I'm a chucklehead?
 
You missed the analogy because of the percent of time dealing with the experience in question. Making a comment about the weather in Alaska while experiencing said weather less than .00...01 percent of its existence is as illegitimate as making a comment about all the teachers in the U.S. while experiencing less than .00...01 percent of them.

Except I didn't make a comment about all the teachers in the U.S.
 
My take.

Tenure's valuable because it's a safeguard against ageism. I think some form of it should be in place, though the standards which we have in place now (teaching three years and one day) are not nearly stringent enough. A longer (5-7 year) span with more observations and easier ways to remove awful tenured teachers should exist imo.

In some ways, Conan is right. Many teachers are not fired because administrators don't have balls. But it's also because the entire process to remove a tenured teacher is ridiculously expensive. See below.

https://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm

In NJ, we're going to go bankrupt unless something changes. I would agree that the NJEA should probably accept the 1.5% health contributions. That's nothing in the scheme of things. As far as pay freezes go, I'm on the fence.

KEK, I think this was a very insightful post. I meant to say so earlier, but I got caught up in the back and forth, as is usually my downfall. :)
 
I'm just hoping before people advocate to heavily against the unions, tenure, etc., they look at why we have them in the first place. Sometimes cures are worse than diseases.

Sure, but you left that door wide open so I had to razz you.
 
Except I didn't make a comment about all the teachers in the U.S.

I beg to differ.

Frankly, teachers are grossly overpaid for what most of them contribute, which is baby-sitting and busy-work. Should tenure be abolished? The short answer is: yes. I'm pretty bored with this notion that teachers are heroic and they don't receive their due. Teachers often seem to think that due to their "service" they deserve some special place of honor in American society, when in reality most of them are grinding out a paycheck like any other hack.

So, is the generic "teachers" you put in there only for the teachers you had? If so, why are you commenting on a topic that's much broader than just the teachers you had? "Teachers" in this quote obviously refers to ALL teachers that are unionized, which, unless I'm wrong here, is basically all the teachers in the U.S.
 
Darkwing, let's take another look at that.

Frankly, teachers are grossly overpaid for what most of them contribute, which is baby-sitting and busy-work. Should tenure be abolished? The short answer is: yes. I'm pretty bored with this notion that teachers are heroic and they don't receive their due. Teachers often seem to think that due to their "service" they deserve some special place of honor in American society, when in reality most of them are grinding out a paycheck like any other hack.

I would also remind you of a part of that post you left out:

(Note: there are some spectacular teachers out there, absolutely, who deserve our respect and probably hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. But they're rare and special. Conan and KEK are probably two of them. )

I think it's clear that I'm not talking about ALL teachers, here.
 
I don't care that you're talking negatively or positively about teachers and at what ratio. That's not the point. Your point concerns whether the teacher's union should be abolished or not, and you're using your experiences with teacher's to describe the whole of the teaching profession. It's an invalid argument.

"Frankly, teachers are grossly overpaid for what most of them contribute." You make this overreaching argument about "teachers." You make such an authoritative statement based on nothing, which essentially experiencing less than .00...01 percent of the teachers out there is. It'd be the same invalid argument if someone came in saying "Teachers are grossly underpaid for what most of them contribute," and offering only his/her experience with teachers as the basis for the argument.
 
KEK, I think this was a very insightful post. I meant to say so earlier, but I got caught up in the back and forth, as is usually my downfall. :)

Thanks. Also, for the record, I don't feel overpaid nor underpaid. It's a public job and like any, you know going into it what kind of salary you're going to get year to year, or thereabouts. If I felt underpaid, I'd get my resume out there to a better paying district or I would have chosen a different major and career path way back when. And I'd certainly never say I feel I am overpaid.
 
I don't care that you're talking negatively or positively about teachers and at what ratio. That's not the point. Your point concerns whether the teacher's union should be abolished or not, and you're using your experiences with teacher's to describe the whole of the teaching profession. It's an invalid argument.

Whoa. What? My point is not about abolishing the teacher's union. I would not be in favor of abolishing the teacher's union. But I do not think it should be nearly impossible / supremely expensive to fire a bad teacher. That is my point. A bad teacher should be fireable in some reasonable way. This is the point I'm making when I say that tenure, in its current form, should be abolished. If I expressed it in some way that made it possible to interpret my words as saying that the teacher's union should be abolished, let me correct that right now: I never said that.

"Frankly, teachers are grossly overpaid for what most of them contribute." You make this overreaching argument about "teachers." You make such an authoritative statement based on nothing, which essentially experiencing less than .00...01 percent of the teachers out there is. It'd be the same invalid argument if someone came in saying "Teachers are grossly underpaid for what most of them contribute," and offering only his/her experience with teachers as the basis for the argument.

My statement was not meant to be authoritative, it is my opinion. That, too, I think was made entirely clear by another portion of my post that you chose not to quote. Are you one of these fellows who needs "in my opinion" to be put in front of every statement a person makes? It was also an exaggeration to make a point. I thought it would be clear from the context that when, in one paragraph I said teachers are overpaid for what most of them do, and in another paragraph I said that some of them ought to be making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, my point was not that ALL teachers are overpaid -- my point went to the hypothetical notion that there ought to be a way to pay a teacher based on their contributions. There is currently no such method. I know there is no such method. You know there is no such method. Hence the exaggeration. I do not propose that this is realistic. It's kind of like wishing for peace on earth. You know it's not going to happen, but it doesn't make you a chucklehead to say you think there should be peace on earth.

Furthermore, my statement was not based on nothing. It is based on my experiences as a public school student, and my observations as a person belonging to this American society, who talks to other people, reads the news, and forms ideas about things.

That's all it is.

And at the risk of further exasperating everybody, I'll repeat my points in a way that hopefully won't be misconstrued: I don't have a high opinion of teachers as a collective. I don't think that being a teacher merits special recognition by society inherently. I do think that there are great teachers out there. I do think there are some teachers who, due to their individual merits, deserve special recognition. I do think there are some teachers who deserve far more pay and respect than they receive.
 
Yeah, educating 30 to 35 kids about essential knowledge like reading, writing, math, English, etc is a walk in the park. Teachers don't do ****! Home school kids for the win.

Congrats you took my first sentance and responded without reading the following sentance that explained but hey your post count went up.
 
I beg to differ.



So, is the generic "teachers" you put in there only for the teachers you had? If so, why are you commenting on a topic that's much broader than just the teachers you had? "Teachers" in this quote obviously refers to ALL teachers that are unionized, which, unless I'm wrong here, is basically all the teachers in the U.S.
Precisely. Either way it doesn't reflect well on our backpedaling friend here. Either he is spouting BS or else he sucks at communicating what he means. Or maybe a little of both.
 
GoJazz and I are like Nintendo buddies. I miss being a kid.
I think it goes beyond being gaming nerds. GoJazz spewed forth some ignorant BS, too. You guys could start a club called "Let's talk out our asses" and then cry and whine when we get our balls busted on it. jazzgal12 could be your president. Make it happen!
 
CONAN said:
So much for that.

Yes. When you started floundering around with the insults, I thought I would respond by giving you the opportunity to be reasonable, and post in a calm way, and see if we could talk to each other with civility. You did not rise to the occasion.

Precisely. Either way it doesn't reflect well on our backpedaling friend here. Either he is spouting BS or else he sucks at communicating what he means. Or maybe a little of both.

I haven't backpedaled on a single, solitary thing. Do you not understand what "most," "often," and "many" mean? Are you incapable of taking context into account? Will you account for the parts of my post which Darkwing did not quote that address your criticisms, or will you continue to ignore them because they don't fit into this narrative that allows you to attack me?

I think it goes beyond being gaming nerds. GoJazz spewed forth some ignorant BS, too. You guys could start a club called "Let's talk out our asses" and then cry and whine when we get our balls busted on it. jazzgal12 could be your president. Make it happen!

For the record, I'm not sure you've actually refuted the substance of GoJazz's posts anymore than you have mine. I'm not familiar with jazzgal12, but if she/he has run afoul of you, I can only assume at this point that she's good people.
 
I think it goes beyond being gaming nerds. GoJazz spewed forth some ignorant BS, too. You guys could start a club called "Let's talk out our asses" and then cry and whine when we get our balls busted on it. jazzgal12 could be your president. Make it happen!

That is called an ad hominem attack sir. It's also usually the result of someone who cannot defend there position. I never attacked you personally so I find your responce highly offensive. You really shouldn't be teaching children based on the example you have provided us in this thread.
 
That is called an ad hominem attack sir. It's also usually the result of someone who cannot defend there position. I never attacked you personally so I find your responce highly offensive. You really shouldn't be teaching children based on the example you have provided us in this thread.

I met Conan in real life. He's a nice guy, probably a great teacher. To say he shouldn't teach because of petty stuff online is sad, guy. For reals though. Sad. Don't get your panties in a wad, bro. That's why I'm here. I have have lots of panties that need to be wadding.
 
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