Sit Everyone the Rest of the Regular Season

[KqWIN]

I give zero ***** who was the “favorite” the Malone Jazz went to the finals twice and were within a couple ****** calls of winning it… this team hasn’t even come a couple ****** calls from making the conference finals. Malone was an mvp… have any of our guys gotten an mvp vote. It’s not close at all.

As for tanking/rebuilding… small markets will build through the draft… the way to increase the quality and amount of your draft picks is to rebuild… it isn’t necessary if you can find beat the biggest of odds and get Giannis or Jokic but the vast majority of championship teams were built on guys drafted very high… the Jazz have one way to get those type of guys.

When someone says we really need to tank, but also that we have to trade the guys you tank for…idk just sounds like you want to tank because of the comfort. But I won’t speak for you. If that’s your idea for the best way to win a championship, we’ll have to agree to disagree. So many contenders/champions would have been ruined if teams had this mentality of having to “stay down” there.

Draft picks =/= success. The value of being bad is incredibly overrated when it comes to being actually good. I hard disagree that it’s easy to become a contender simply tanking. There is so much more to building a team than simply having draft picks. It’s fun…but not necessarily the best way to be build a championship contender.

 

[Rubashov]

Bunch of potential soft tissue injuries that have nagged at the guys... fresh legs to start the playoffs. If we lose out and get the 6 its likely better. Give us 30 ppg from JB and NAW's 25% 3 point shooting.

We play two teams that are tanking as hard as teams can... let's make it interesting.

you're drunk, go home

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

When someone says we really need to tank, but also that we have to trade the guys you tank for…idk just sounds like you want to tank because of the comfort. But I won’t speak for you. If that’s your idea for the best way to win a championship, we’ll have to agree to disagree. So many contenders/champions would have been ruined if teams had this mentality of having to “stay down” there.

Draft picks =/= success. The value of being bad is incredibly overrated when it comes to being actually good. I hard disagree that it’s easy to become a contender simply tanking. There is so much more to building a team than simply having draft picks. It’s fun…but not necessarily the best way to be build a championship contender.

What???? There is so much of this that isn’t true… and there is so much I never argued. Tanking/rebuilding through the draft is not the only thing you have to get right… I never argued it… it’s not necessary if you hit on the 1/1000 chance that you draft Giannis or you live in a glamour market.

I’m going to need you to name all of these contenders and championship teams that would have been ruined by staying down… you only need to stay down until you get the prize.

When a group stagnates it leads to frustration between fans and also more so with the players. When that group has no chance to breakout it’s even worse… when the star players start having rumors that they are out of here it gets miserable.

We have no lotto tickets/ picks… we have exactly one young player who might become something… we are capped out. We won’t be able to turn bogey and Mike into Kawhi.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Worth noting that one of the most notorious tankers of the modern era built a team that went to five consecutive finals and won three of them (losing one to the arguable GOAT playing the best basketball of his life alongside two other all-stars and good role players [after being up 3-1 and letting off the gas just a bit] and losing the other after their best individual player ****ed up his calf/achilles and their 3rd best player/perennial all-star tore his ACL).

 

[KqWIN]

What???? There is so much of this that isn’t true… and there is so much I never argued. Tanking/rebuilding through the draft is not the only thing you have to get right… I never argued it… it’s not necessary if you hit on the 1/1000 chance that you draft Giannis or you live in a glamour market.

I’m going to need you to name all of these contenders and championship teams that would have been ruined by staying down… you only need to stay down until you get the prize.

When a group stagnates it leads to frustration between fans and also more so with the players. When that group has no chance to breakout it’s even worse… when the star players start having rumors that they are out of here it gets miserable.

We have no lotto tickets/ picks… we have exactly one young player who might become something… we are capped out. We won’t be able to turn bogey and Mike into Kawhi.

The most obvious contender that would have been ruined is this Jazz team. Now, you may think the Jazz being title favorites was unwarranted, but it wasn't because of anything they did or didn't do tanking wise. If you think we should trade Donovan now, we should have traded Gobert once Hayward was gone. Gobert alone makes it impossible to be at the bottom. Similarly, another obvious example would be the Suns. The Suns weren't good when they got Chris Paul. Once they got Chris Paul, they were only projected to finish 8th in the west....purgatory. But we all know how that ended up, and they probably wouldn't have been in the running had they not gotten Rubio the year before and started winning games. The Bucks never stayed down for too long either. They were 41-41 and Giannis was averaging 12 points a game. no one expected him to an MVP. The Raptors were never down at all, and they even tried to trade Lowry at one point, but to their luck Dolan said no and now they have a championship for it. If they had the tank mentality....bye bye championship. It's really not hard to find examples of this. Just look at the best teams in the league year over year. You would have broken up many of these great teams before they even got started.

Worth noting that one of the most notorious tankers of the modern era built a team that went to five consecutive finals and won three of them (losing one to the arguable GOAT playing the best basketball of his life alongside two other all-stars and good role players [after being up 3-1 and letting off the gas just a bit] and losing the other after their best individual player ****ed up his calf/achilles and their 3rd best player/perennial all-star tore his ACL).

A little disingenuous to tie their success to their tanking, especially given that the guy they tanked for wasn't even there for two of those five titles and was a supporting piece anyways.

 

[NUMBERICA]

A little disingenuous to tie their success to their tanking, especially given that the guy they tanked for wasn't even there for two of those five titles and was a supporting piece anyways.

Less saying it’s BECAUSE OF tanking and more combating the silly narrative that losing necessarily begets losing in the medium and long run.

 

[KqWIN]

Less saying it’s BECAUSE OF tanking and more combating the silly narrative that losing necessarily begets losing in the medium and long run.

I definitely am not supporting that narrative. Tanking is just very overrated as a general team building strategy....that's my point. The Warriors would have definitely regretted it if they tried to "stay down" though instead of trying to win. The reverse of narrative that trying to win is the common foil for teams is just as silly.


We've gotten way off topic here, but I would say it's way better for the Jazz to rest and remain the 6th seed to avoid the Suns as long as possible. As bad as things are right now, the best chance for the Jazz to have two all NBA players and the opportunity to win a championship is Don+Rudy. The likelihood of getting a team with two players this good is low, so I don't see the urgency in trying to bottom out. Tankers like to talk about patience....well there's and endless amount of time to be an awful team. The opportunity to have Don+Rudy on your team is extremely rare. Even in the more likely scenario where Rudy must be traded and Don is still likely to demand out in a year or two....it's a privilege to be in that position to have even one player as good as Don.

So yeah....rest everyone and give me that 6th seed. Give Don+Rudy the best chance at going far and the best chance at giving it another go. In the more likely scenario where we get humiliated again the playoffs, I don't see the hurry in trading Don unless he demands out himself. Even if he does, nothing wrong with playing the long game to get the best package. The opportunity to be awful is always available.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The most obvious contender that would have been ruined is this Jazz team. Now, you may think the Jazz being title favorites was unwarranted, but it wasn't because of anything they did or didn't do tanking wise. If you think we should trade Donovan now, we should have traded Gobert once Hayward was gone. Gobert alone makes it impossible to be at the bottom. Similarly, another obvious example would be the Suns. The Suns weren't good when they got Chris Paul. Once they got Chris Paul, they were only projected to finish 8th in the west....purgatory. But we all know how that ended up, and they probably wouldn't have been in the running had they not gotten Rubio the year before and started winning games. The Bucks never stayed down for too long either. They were 41-41 and Giannis was averaging 12 points a game. no one expected him to an MVP. The Raptors were never down at all, and they even tried to trade Lowry at one point, but to their luck Dolan said no and now they have a championship for it. If they had the tank mentality....bye bye championship. It's really not hard to find examples of this. Just look at the best teams in the league year over year. You would have broken up many of these great teams before they even got started.



A little disingenuous to tie their success to their tanking, especially given that the guy they tanked for wasn't even there for two of those five titles and was a supporting piece anyways.

Those are not the same as where we are. At the time Gordon left it was a legit question on whether we should trade Rudy to do a full scale rebuild but my stance was very firm that you see what you have with Donovan (and Exum) and we had a lot of cap space to maneuver... there was still enormous upside or at least some chances. so I was very wait and see... and who knows if you did trade Rudy and what if you did tank and have Luka, Ayton, or JJJ now plus whatever future assets you got for Rudy? You speak as if we were some sure fire contender... we were always at least one or two sprained ankles away. Which is good enough to push in... but I would have picked 3-4 other teams I would expect to have a better shot.

The Suns were headed out of purgatory... young AS level player in Booker, the #1 pick and huge upside big, Bridges, plus they had picks, cap space, in front of them. A tear down would have been dumb AF. That is a team built through rebuilding.

The Warriors drafted Steph, Klay (both in the lotto), Green, within a couple years of each other. They definitely tanked for the Barnes pick... he was on some of those title teams. They also used Monta Ellis to trade for Bogut who was out for the year... he was important to those teams too... the ****ing tanked and used that tank to help propel their success.

My stance has been the same all along... trade both or keep both. Moving one or the other moves us to the middle and the runway won't be long enough to make it work with Donovan imo... unless you get a young player that pops or a draft pick that pops in the Rudy trade. You said yourself Donovan might be happy here if we move Rudy. I think keeping them together is not on the table at this point unless something dramatic happens (I'm talking Disney movie **** levels of dramatic).

Raptors are about the only example... and Masai knew that thing wasn't a winner... its why he was cool doing the Kawhi move. If it worked then awesome... if not it was the pivot point for a tear down. It was super flukey that an MVP player came available for what they had to offer. You can point at SA return in that deal as an argument against hanging in the middle. If they had accepted defeat and got future looking assets instead of win-now pieces where would they be?

Almost every title contender is built on high level talent they got through the draft. If you increase your chances for draft success you increase your chances for a title. I don't think we should have tanked this season at all... but next season? We running it back? We don't have a pick this year... we have no young players... flipping our aging win-now guys for better win-now guys is the only way to do it... but those trades haven't been there and likely will continue to not be there. Do those deals while not taking on additional salary too? Trade Rudy for some good players... sweet we go to 45 wins if things work out... draft in the late teens... we don't have our pick in 2024 unless we tank... meanwhile the Donovan rumors intensify. What if he won't sign an extension end of next year? Now we move him?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I definitely am not supporting that narrative. Tanking is just very overrated as a general team building strategy....that's my point. The Warriors would have definitely regretted it if they tried to "stay down" though instead of trying to win. The reverse of narrative that trying to win is the common foil for teams is just as silly.

So what team building strategy do you suggest is better? For a small market team? I'm all ears. Free Agency? Yankee Swap our way from Mike Conley to Paul George?

They are all low probability scenarios. Tanking isn't about this year its about next year. The best path forward is keeping Don and Rudy next year... that does not appear to be a feasible option given their relationship. Keep Donovan alone and you are the Beal Wizards... sounds fun.

 

[KqWIN]

Those are not the same as where we are. At the time Gordon left it was a legit question on whether we should trade Rudy to do a full scale rebuild but my stance was very firm that you see what you have with Donovan (and Exum) and we had a lot of cap space to maneuver... there was still enormous upside or at least some chances. so I was very wait and see... and who knows if you did trade Rudy and what if you did tank and have Luka, Ayton, or JJJ now plus whatever future assets you got for Rudy? You speak as if we were some sure fire contender... we were always at least one or two sprained ankles away. Which is good enough to push in... but I would have picked 3-4 other teams I would expect to have a better shot.

The Suns were headed out of purgatory... young AS level player in Booker, the #1 pick and huge upside big, Bridges, plus they had picks, cap space, in front of them. A tear down would have been dumb AF. That is a team built through rebuilding.

The Warriors drafted Steph, Klay (both in the lotto), Green, within a couple years of each other. They definitely tanked for the Barnes pick... he was on some of those title teams. They also used Monta Ellis to trade for Bogut who was out for the year... he was important to those teams too... the ****ing tanked and used that tank to help propel their success.

My stance has been the same all along... trade both or keep both. Moving one or the other moves us to the middle and the runway won't be long enough to make it work with Donovan imo... unless you get a young player that pops or a draft pick that pops in the Rudy trade. You said yourself Donovan might be happy here if we move Rudy. I think keeping them together is not on the table at this point unless something dramatic happens (I'm talking Disney movie **** levels of dramatic).

Raptors are about the only example... and Masai knew that thing wasn't a winner... its why he was cool doing the Kawhi move. If it worked then awesome... if not it was the pivot point for a tear down. It was super flukey that an MVP player came available for what they had to offer. You can point at SA return in that deal as an argument against hanging in the middle. If they had accepted defeat and got future looking assets instead of win-now pieces where would they be?

Almost every title contender is built on high level talent they got through the draft. If you increase your chances for draft success you increase your chances for a title. I don't think we should have tanked this season at all... but next season? We running it back? We don't have a pick this year... we have no young players... flipping our aging win-now guys for better win-now guys is the only way to do it... but those trades haven't been there and likely will continue to not be there. Do those deals while not taking on additional salary too? Trade Rudy for some good players... sweet we go to 45 wins if things work out... draft in the late teens... we don't have our pick in 2024 unless we tank... meanwhile the Donovan rumors intensify. What if he won't sign an extension end of next year? Now we move him?

You can nitpick these examples all you want, but fact is they would not have had the same success if they decided to tank instead of tried to win at different points. OTOH, I can easily nitpick any team that built through the draft and say they wouldn't have won had they not done this or that which was not related to tanking at all. We have differing opinions on how "valuable" tanking is, and that's fine, but I certainly don't think it's easy to get where the Jazz are.

So what team building strategy do you suggest is better? For a small market team? I'm all ears. Free Agency? Yankee Swap our way from Mike Conley to Paul George?

They are all low probability scenarios. Tanking isn't about this year its about next year. The best path forward is keeping Don and Rudy next year... that does not appear to be a feasible option given their relationship. Keep Donovan alone and you are the Beal Wizards... sounds fun.

The Beal Wizards might be fun if they might the right moves to surround Beal with the right talent. I'd imagine they'd be in a much better spot if they were the CP3 team, and not the RWB team. The Wizards after trading Beal might also turn out to be complete **** like the Magic or Kings. There is a lot of room to work with and it could have gone/still can go in many directions. They aren't doomed....and if they are it isn't necessarily because they didn't tank.

If we're going to entertain the idea of trading Donovan after Rudy is gone, let's throw another impossible idea out there. Maybe it's not even impossible if Don himself decides to demand out. The actual best path a championship would be to trade Don and keep Rudy. The problem with trading Rudy is that you're very unlikely to get a player(s) back than Rudy. Having said that, I'd be willing to roll with Capela + Collins + Hunter or whatever type of package we get for Rudy just too see how that works with Don. I don't think Don loses value until he's on the very last year of his deal, and that's a huge maybe because stars have often been traded on their last year for peak value. But if you trade Don...I actually think you can trade for players(s) that are better than him. In the event that Don won't play with Rudy, trading Don and continuing to compete as a contender is more likely to yield a title than trading both and building a contender from what you can get from them. If you're dead set on trading Rudy and keeping Don, Don is good enough that it's worth it to wait and see how good you are with the new pieces. If it doesn't work out, then you can explore the inevitable trade.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You can nitpick these examples all you want, but fact is they would not have had the same success if they decided to tank instead of tried to win at different points. OTOH, I can easily nitpick any team that built through the draft and say they wouldn't have won had they not done this or that which was not related to tanking at all. We have differing opinions on how "valuable" tanking is, and that's fine, but I certainly don't think it's easy to get where the Jazz are.




The Beal Wizards might be fun if they might the right moves to surround Beal with the right talent. I'd imagine they'd be in a much better spot if they were the CP3 team, and not the RWB team. The Wizards after trading Beal might also turn out to be complete **** like the Magic or Kings. There is a lot of room to work with and it could have gone/still can go in many directions. They aren't doomed....and if they are it isn't necessarily because they didn't tank.

If we're going to entertain the idea of trading Donovan after Rudy is gone, let's throw another impossible idea out there. Maybe it's not even impossible if Don himself decides to demand out. The actual best path a championship would be to trade Don and keep Rudy. The problem with trading Rudy is that you're very unlikely to get a player(s) back than Rudy. Having said that, I'd be willing to roll with Capela + Collins + Hunter or whatever type of package we get for Rudy just too see how that works with Don. I don't think Don loses value until he's on the very last year of his deal, and that's a huge maybe because stars have often been traded on their last year for peak value. But if you trade Don...I actually think you can trade for players(s) that are better than him. In the event that Don won't play with Rudy, trading Don and continuing to compete as a contender is more likely to yield a title than trading both and building a contender from what you can get from them. If you're dead set on trading Rudy and keeping Don, Don is good enough that it's worth it to wait and see how good you are with the new pieces. If it doesn't work out, then you can explore the inevitable trade.

You can't just build through the draft... you still have to make other moves. GS still has to get Iggy, Bogut (through a tanking trade), SA still has to nab Kawhi, etc. The base talent almost always comes through the draft and almost always comes from guys selected really high.

Beal Wiz didn't really have a shot at CP. Westbrook was a rough contract/player but Wall was the worst contract in basketball. They didn't have the goods to get CP.

This may shock you... I agree with your idea that trading Donovan and not Rudy might be the better path. Depends on the return with both trades... but Donovan would get a haul. There aren't a lot of hypotheticals that I love. The issue I have with trading Rudy is you likely need to trade both Rudy and Mike. Both might have limited trade markets. I generally don't care what conference you trade a player to... but with Rudy Dallas and Memphis could be serious suitors... putting him on either of those teams is terrifying. If Atlanta doesn't think it fits the Trae timeline... your market really starts to shrink (I also don't think Atlanta goes past Collins, Capella, and a first... Huerter maybe but I think Hunter and Huerter are guys they need to keep). Rolling with Mike/Bogey/Don and whatever you get for Rudy feels like it will age out almost immediately.

Anyway... because of the difficulty of moving one of Don or Rudy and one of the older pieces to get a win-now return... I think the best path is to just accept reality. At very least I think all options need to be open to maximize the next two or three years if that is the goal. Waiting a couple years to trade Donovan might work if you hit a homerun in the draft (with picks we acquire in trades?). It could also be miserable with rumors surrounding what he wants to do and Donovan not asking out because of how it will look. Running it all the way to where he has one year left is dangerous too... if he gets hurt his value disappears... you also are generally limited in who will take him with one year left. The return would almost surely be less than what we'd get now but might not be too bad?

I just think rebuilding and not flipping the switch until your young talent pulls you out of the mud yields so much in assets it gives you a bigger margin of error... when building a contender you need margin of error because its basically impossible.

 

[NUMBERICA]

You can nitpick these examples all you want, but fact is they would not have had the same success if they decided to tank instead of tried to win at different points. OTOH, I can easily nitpick any team that built through the draft and say they wouldn't have won had they not done this or that which was not related to tanking at all. We have differing opinions on how "valuable" tanking is, and that's fine, but I certainly don't think it's easy to get where the Jazz are.

Is this a cached post from a year ago? The Jazz barely made the playoffs. It might not be easy, but I don't think it's particularly hard either.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Is this a cached post from a year ago? The Jazz barely made the playoffs. It might not be easy, but I don't think it's particularly hard either.

Listened to Tim McMahon's interview with Spence Checketts from this week. Just reiterated what he said originally but had some stronger language... "Donovan isn't long for Utah... the overwhelming intel is that he will ask out and maybe as soon as this summer... you can't trade Rudy to try and make Donovan happy because if he doesn't want to be here losing more won't change that." He is very tied into the Jazz... mentioned this has kinda hung over the team all year... it seems pretty ominous imo.

His stance is exactly the same as mine... if you trade one you trade both. Mentioned the returns for Rudy would primarily be pick based... so not returning a lot of guys that help now. mentioned maybe a Pascal for Rudy trade... but I'm not sure what that really does for us... I get it for them for sure.

We are lucky Mike has held up as well as he has... next year is his age 35 season... age 35 season is where guys like him fall off the cliff. There isn't a whole lot of comps but... Terry, Dragic, Billups, Tony Parker, etc. all basically died in age 34-35 season... and those guys have more size than Mike. We've seen it at times this year. I think you have to trade him no matter what we do... and the return might be pretty meh.

What we likely do is some Rudy and Mike trade this offseason and beg Donovan to give it a chance and he likely says okay... mid-season we likely move him or end of next year after a 40ish win season and 1700 articles about where Donovan will land.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Listened to Tim McMahon's interview with Spence Checketts from this week. Just reiterated what he said originally but had some stronger language... "Donovan isn't long for Utah... the overwhelming intel is that he will ask out and maybe as soon as this summer... you can't trade Rudy to try and make Donovan happy because if he doesn't want to be here losing more won't change that." He is very tied into the Jazz... mentioned this has kinda hung over the team all year... it seems pretty ominous imo.

His stance is exactly the same as mine... if you trade one you trade both. Mentioned the returns for Rudy would primarily be pick based... so not returning a lot of guys that help now. mentioned maybe a Pascal for Rudy trade... but I'm not sure what that really does for us... I get it for them for sure.

We are lucky Mike has held up as well as he has... next year is his age 35 season... age 35 season is where guys like him fall off the cliff. There isn't a whole lot of comps but... Terry, Dragic, Billups, Tony Parker, etc. all basically died in age 34-35 season... and those guys have more size than Mike. We've seen it at times this year. I think you have to trade him no matter what we do... and the return might be pretty meh.

What we likely do is some Rudy and Mike trade this offseason and beg Donovan to give it a chance and he likely says okay... mid-season we likely move him or end of next year after a 40ish win season and 1700 articles about where Donovan will land.

McMahon is very tied in to the Dallas Mavericks. He's saying that the Mavs have strong interest in Gobert if the Jazz blow up. Mavs would offer expiring deals and future picks. It's not terribly compelling, if you ask me.

I could see the Jazz trade Gobert opportunistically if they think they can get a dynamic wing to play next to Mitchell, along with a serviceable big that's more cost controlled. Basically, the Jazz would change their philosophy, as both the offense and the defense are currently built around Gobert's presence near the rim. I could see the Jazz trade Bogdanovic, because he's aging and expiring after next season. He also creates a dead spot in our defense.

Conley probably becomes the elder statesman of the team, and his minutes and role will decrease if and as his level drops.

If Donovan leaves Utah, it's because he wants to go to a bigger, more glamorous market like NY, Miami or maybe LA. He's under contract for 3 more years before his player option. Jazz aren't going to trade him casually, and Donovan's only leverage is to pout and tank like James Harden, which I don't think he would do.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

McMahon is very tied in to the Dallas Mavericks. He's saying that the Mavs have strong interest in Gobert if the Jazz blow up. Mavs would offer expiring deals and future picks. It's not terribly compelling, if you ask me.

I could see the Jazz trade Gobert opportunistically if they think they can get a dynamic wing to play next to Mitchell, along with a serviceable big that's more cost controlled. Basically, the Jazz would change their philosophy, as both the offense and the defense are currently built around Gobert's presence near the rim. I could see the Jazz trade Bogdanovic, because he's aging and expiring after next season. He also creates a dead spot in our defense.

Conley probably becomes the elder statesman of the team, and his minutes and role will decrease if and as his level drops.

If Donovan leaves Utah, it's because he wants to go to a bigger, more glamorous market like NY, Miami or maybe LA. He's under contract for 3 more years before his player option. Jazz aren't going to trade him casually, and Donovan's only leverage is to pout and tank like James Harden, which I don't think he would do.

McMahon is super tied into the Jazz too...

Donovan has more leverage than that. He likely doesn't take it as far as Harden or Simmons. Basically if guys want out they can get out nowadays. Only reason Lillard and Beal haven't been moved is to 1- Sign their mega extensions 2- They still want to make it work in their market.

I think one of the issues with Donovan is he never experienced a losing awful season... so may not appreciate all the winning we've done and may not realize how hard it could be in NY or somewhere else. IDK... it just doesn't look great.

 

[Miggs]

Agreed. Get healthy. And if we win game one on the road in the playoffs, I think a switch could flip.

 

[Jingled]

If we lose our last two games and the Nuggets beat the Lakers Sunday, we will drop to the coveted 6 spot.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If we lose our last two games and the Nuggets beat the Lakers Sunday, we will drop to the coveted 6 spot.

The last game versus Portland could be the most epic tank off… who wants this less.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

If we lose our last two games and the Nuggets beat the Lakers Sunday, we will drop to the coveted 6 spot.

The Nuggets are better at losing games on purpose than us.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

The last game versus Portland could be the most epic tank off… who wants this less.

Unfortunately our end of bench guys are too good right now. I think we probably win even if we sit our main rotation players.