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So glad the LDS Church doesn't do paid clergy.

Here's my analogy on the whole thing:

If I need a surgery, I'm going with the guy who has devoted his life and profession to the study of just that. Not the guy who does it after work because he feels compelled to do so.

Valid point.

On the other hand, think of how much the average LDS church members learns and grows BECAUSE the church doesn't have a paid clergy. I've never been a bishop, but I've been asked to serve in many other church positions. And in so doing I've learned far more about "marital, moral, and religious issues" then I ever would have learned by listening to advice from a professional clergyman. Or so it seems to me.
 
Valid point.

On the other hand, think of how much the average LDS church members learns and grows BECAUSE the church doesn't have a paid clergy. I've never been a bishop, but I've been asked to serve in many other church positions. And in so doing I've learned far more about "marital, moral, and religious issues" then I ever would have learned by listening to advice from a professional clergyman. Or so it seems to me.


I see your points as well and I should be clear that my opinions are coming from a non religious perspective. I think it's a really good debate because both sides have very plausible arguments.

For the past 11 years, I've worked with a guy who I've gotten very close to. His dad was a bishop and his stories have really stuck with me because he seems to recall his father's time as a bishop with a certain amount of resentment. He has mentioned numerous times that it's almost like he didn't know his father during his calling. He also recalls it as the most stressful time his family had to endure- especially his mother. I'm sure there's experiences very similar as well as very different among LDS families in regards to having a father take on that responsibility.

Either way, it sounds like an awfully huge undertaking for an individual as well as their family. That's not even including one's ability to deal with theological issues, etc.
 
Here's my analogy on the whole thing:

If I need a surgery, I'm going with the guy who has devoted his life and profession to the study of just that. Not the guy who does it after work because he feels compelled to do so.

Does that analogy work for sex?
 
Back on topic, this is one thing that bothered me on my mission. I would hear missionaries using scriptures from the NT about not preaching for filthy lucre, then stating that we don't have a paid clergy, then adding "even the prophet and apostles aren't paid" when they actually are. It might be less than they would make in their professions, but then most people don't retire on 80% of their previous wages, and most in that group are retirement age easy when they are called. I would just tell people when they asked that we (missionaries) and the local clergy aren't paid.
 
rumor had it, years ago, that some GAs had issues about their perks. I think it was B.R. McConkie who had a Ford Pinto that didn't fit in with all the caddies and beamers in the GA "reserved" line in the underground parking of the COB. Some felt that McConkie was casting aspersions on his brethren and playing some kind of self-righteous finger-pointing game against his brethren.

You folks can all think what you want, but I considered this a proof of McConkies' good standing with God, because he did not die as a "flash in the pan" victim of the Ford Roadbomb.

Lolz...You and your hatred of Ford.
 
Also it pisses me off because these guys are going against the Bible. The Bible specificlly talks about giving 10% to your LOCAL church. Not to a guy you have never met before on TV.

Actually, it states to tithe to the Levites and then the Levites tithe to the high priest, so maybe the Jimmy Swaggarts of the world consider that justification. I personally feel that donating to a church, any church, is ridiculous, but to each their own.
 
There are some things financially about the LDS church that bug me but if this kind of crap was going on this would put me over the edge. So sad that these people send these TV preachers money. This type of ministry should be illegal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ9oBCLwwL0


Curious as to what bugs you about the LDS finances?
 
Also it pisses me off because these guys are going against the Bible. The Bible specificlly talks about giving 10% to your LOCAL church. Not to a guy you have never met before on TV.


Also if these guys are promising the curing of cancer or anything on those lines it needs to be done away with. I am for equal rights of all citizens and that includes protecting dumb people, senior citizens and just desperate people that are on their death beds.

It's never been illegal to take advantage of dumb people, as long as what you're doing/selling is legal. The only time you run into trouble is when you take a legitimate sale/offer/whatever and take advantage of someone who is incompetent, or has no reasonable idea of what they're doing. Seniors fall into this category a lot because of douche bag insurance guys, reverse mortgage guys, etc. that go into their homes, scare them, and then take their money. Stupid people do not need to be protected, because they can/should learn from their stupidity. Seniors are different.

Here's my analogy on the whole thing:

If I need a surgery, I'm going with the guy who has devoted his life and profession to the study of just that. Not the guy who does it after work because he feels compelled to do so.

Agree 100%. That being said, most Mo' bishops don't "do it after work because they're compelled to do so", they do it because they've been asked to, regardless if they want to or not, because that's what Mo's do. If you're like most Mo's, then you believe that God chose that person to be your bishop, and therefore, is going to give him the tools and essentials to take care of you and your issues. Your analogy doesn't really work in this scenario because bishops don't do surgery. As far as I know, they pretty much just give advice. When things get serious, let's say, sexual misdeeds of the illegal kind for instance, then things are escalated to proper authorities, etc. (at least they're supposed to be) I go to my bishop for advice (not really, but just stick with me) about life in general, or if I have a spiritual problem. If I have money problems, wife problems, legal problems, or health problems, I go to a professional.

I personally feel that donating to a church, any church, is ridiculous, but to each their own.

I know why you feel this way (I think), because I felt that way for a long time too. There's no right or wrong answer, just like the case of these televangelists; it really just boils down to what people want to do with their own hard earned dollars. If it gives you satisfaction, then by golly, go for it.
 
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Also, someone mentioned how the family of a bishop can suffer and I have first hand knowledge of the truth of this. There is a horrible stereotype out there that if you want to get a quick and easy screw, find a bishops daughter; sad, but it happens all the time. Most bishops serve five year terms, and if they're lucky, it ends there. I've seen plenty of instances where they leave their bishops calling and take an equally large calling in the stake (wards are divided into stakes, usually 5 or 6 wards per stake, and there is a stake presidency that oversees all of the wards, etc. -- one more layer of Government for babe and Pearl to complain about I suppose), which can be equally devastating on a young family. Think about it: If you're called to be a bishop and your daughter is 12 years old, you know, right about the time she automatically hates you and your wife and wants to start experimenting with adult things, how do you think things are going to go if you're at work from 9 to 5 and doing bishopric things five nights a week from 6 to 10? Age 12 to 17 girls need a dad in their lives, imo, which to me explains why that stereotype I mentioned above is really just a sad reality in some cases.

Which leads to the other questions of why would the church do things like that? Which leads to a lot of spiritual type questions that aren't worth talking about here. It is a very interesting thing to think about though. I have mountains of respect for guys that are bishops, even if I don't like them personally (had a few, tbh) because I have a feeling it's the hardest five years of their lives.
 
Curious as to what bugs you about the LDS finances?

There is just a few things I find hypocritical:


-I think its great for SLC and I really enjoy going there but I think City Creek is over the top. I also find it hypocritical they are profiting off of the sale of tea, coffee and alcohol.

-There are reports that based on estimates of what the church makes through tithing money that the church themselves is not paying out 10% to relief efforts or charitable items. The churches finances are all secret so there is no way to verify this.

-I don't mind GA's given a salary but I hear stories of "insider trading". Where GA's or their family member start purchasing land around where temples are going to be built before they are announced to the public. Temples usually drive up property values.


So some of this stuff to be honest it pure speculation. Which is why I think the church should just open up the financial documents and be clear about everything.
 
There is just a few things I find hypocritical:


-I think its great for SLC and I really enjoy going there but I think City Creek is over the top. I also find it hypocritical they are profiting off of the sale of tea, coffee and alcohol.

-There are reports that based on estimates of what the church makes through tithing money that the church themselves is not paying out 10% to relief efforts or charitable items. The churches finances are all secret so there is no way to verify this.

-I don't mind GA's given a salary but I hear stories of "insider trading". Where GA's or their family member start purchasing land around where temples are going to be built before they are announced to the public. Temples usually drive up property values.


So some of this stuff to be honest it pure speculation. Which is why I think the church should just open up the financial documents and be clear about everything.

It's so unlike you to base your radically stupid opinions on ridiculous speculation and unprovable theories.



Seriously, I'm shocked at your take here. Shocked.
 
It's so unlike you to base your radically stupid opinions on ridiculous speculation and unprovable theories.



Seriously, I'm shocked at your take here. Shocked.

Trout you are not that dumb. The point of the post was referring that the church should be more transparent with their financial records to the tithe paying members of the church. So that speculation isn't there.

Also:

-The City Creek thing is not speculation. That one is obvious.

-The financial aspects of the church is speculation, but obviously the church could focus more on charitable aspirations rather than real estate development.
 
Trout you are not that dumb. The point of the post was referring that the church should be more transparent with their financial records to the tithe paying members of the church. So that speculation isn't there.

The church doesn't have to do jack squat is the problem. I wish they'd stay out of politics, but they don't. At the end of the day though, it's really in their hands and you can love it or hate it, but to openly complain or try to change it is pointless and only makes you look like an idiot. (I would know, I've done it plenty)

Also:

-The City Creek thing is not speculation. That one is obvious.

-The financial aspects of the church is speculation, but obviously the church could focus more on charitable aspirations rather than real estate development.

I find it hard to give two ****s about these.
 
But the church does change with pressure. It has since its existence. There was tons of pressure from members to change things in the temple which has constantly changed because members speaking out against it. A few years ago gay thoughts were sins. Now they are not. Look at the recent post by the church about blacks in the priesthood. Also there was pressure to have women pray in Conference which they did.

I'm not bashing the church all I am saying is the members and some outsiders do have influence on the Church. The LDS church is the members church just as much as the leaders, and people can speak up for change. I used to think that was a bad thing but members pressuring the leaders can create positive change.
 
My two pennies - I was called to be a bishop when I was 30 years old. My family was living in Tennessee at the time. I shared with a few people at work that I had been called, and it was difficult for them to get how it all worked. A co-worker who was studying to be a pastor / minister was very skeptical that I had been asked / assigned (I certainly didn't volunteer for it!) to be a "pastor" out of the blue, while he was hoping to be hired as one once he finished his divinity schooling for which he was paying a lot of money. At first I didn't know how to really respond to his skepticism, but as I thought about it, I came up with this response. From the time I was twelve until nineteen, I've been involved in different types of church callings or responsibilities for a few hours a week. Additionally, I attended 4 years of seminary in high school, totaling over 1,000 hours of schooling. Beyond that, I had a year of institute, and two full years completely dedicated to ecclesiastical service / leadership as a missionary in Japan. Since the 8 years of my mission, I'd had callings that required 4-8 hours a week of effort, in addition to the three hours at church every Sunday. I'm not saying it's quite as concentrated as a 4 or 6 yr divinity degree, but it's a lot closer than one would think. And - I was younger than many who had that responsibility. Don't get me wrong - I certainly got things wrong as a bishop, and there's lots of things that I would do differently. But - I had been observing church leaders for 15 years, and had hundreds of hours of church leadership training by that point in my life.
 
My two pennies - I was called to be a bishop when I was 30 years old. My family was living in Tennessee at the time. I shared with a few people at work that I had been called, and it was difficult for them to get how it all worked. A co-worker who was studying to be a pastor / minister was very skeptical that I had been asked / assigned (I certainly didn't volunteer for it!) to be a "pastor" out of the blue, while he was hoping to be hired as one once he finished his divinity schooling for which he was paying a lot of money. At first I didn't know how to really respond to his skepticism, but as I thought about it, I came up with this response. From the time I was twelve until nineteen, I've been involved in different types of church callings or responsibilities for a few hours a week. Additionally, I attended 4 years of seminary in high school, totaling over 1,000 hours of schooling. Beyond that, I had a year of institute, and two full years completely dedicated to ecclesiastical service / leadership as a missionary in Japan. Since the 8 years of my mission, I'd had callings that required 4-8 hours a week of effort, in addition to the three hours at church every Sunday. I'm not saying it's quite as concentrated as a 4 or 6 yr divinity degree, but it's a lot closer than one would think. And - I was younger than many who had that responsibility. Don't get me wrong - I certainly got things wrong as a bishop, and there's lots of things that I would do differently. But - I had been observing church leaders for 15 years, and had hundreds of hours of church leadership training by that point in my life.

Good post. I think also in LDS life you have more experience working with people and others. Not just studying and schooling like other Pastors might have to spend more time on.
 
My two pennies - I was called to be a bishop when I was 30 years old.

So are you a bishop now?


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