Somebody explain Derrick Williams love to a Jazz Fan

[billyshelby]

I was a big Cousins fan, but the stats don't support this post. Cousins shot 43% from the floor this season. He wasn't brutalizing anything.

I don't concern myself that greatly with any rookie's stats. I look at what they can do. Cousins is a really skilled player with a naturally big body and he knows how to use it. He takes stupid shots and gets into foul trouble. And he's probably not going to improve his FG% greatly for a year or two. But he's very tough to defend and if he has the talent to be a beast.

 

[GVC]

I don't concern myself that greatly with any rookie's stats...

You don't seem to concern yourself with any veteran's stats.

 

[billyshelby]

You don't seem to concern yourself with any veteran's stats.

I concern myself with them plenty. I just don't think stats tell the whole picture. But I'm also not watching 20 odd Jazz games off a pirated internet feed on a cracked monitor in my toolshed. I saw Cousins play about 15 times last year. Saw Al 82. They're both very talented. But if all you do is look at spreadsheets, you probably wouldn't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Qman]

I watched the highlights of the 2nd day the combine again. Derrick Williams moves very well on the agility drills. Better than Jimmer Fredette, and Jordan Hamilton. He has the athletic ability to the play the 3. There is still a lot of work he needs to put in to learn how to defend on the perimeter. But I can see it happening now.

 

[GVC]

I concern myself with them plenty. I just don't think stats tell the whole picture. But I'm also not watching 20 odd Jazz games off a pirated internet feed on a cracked monitor in my toolshed. I saw Cousins play about 15 times last year. Saw Al 82. They're both very talented. But if all you do is look at spreadsheets, you probably wouldn't know what I'm talking about.

I never said stats told the whole picture. Big Al is far worse than his stats indicate, for example, since they fail to capture his poor transition and overall team play.

As for Cousins, he's young and he plays for a **** coach who jerked him around all season. I think he'll pan out, but you never know. Big Al has now had 7 seasons to figure things out, and has yet to show any ability to compete at a sufficiently high level. His conditioning is awful, his on-court desire generally lacking. I don't think he hates losing nearly enough.

You seem to mistake players' sporadic flashes of brilliance for potential (as evidenced by your continuing CJ love), but if players take enough shots (especially when they shouldn't), they're bound to look special once in a while. It would serve you well to be a bit more critical of your judgments. Sometimes first impressions and "the eye test" do a poor job of representing reality.

It's hard to have an intelligent conversation/argument with someone who relies on his eyes alone, despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[billyshelby]

We've been down this road over and over. All I need to see are comments like "his on court desire is lacking" and "I don't think he hates losing nearly enough" to confirm that you just don't watch games. You take breaks from Halo to look at numbers and draw overreaching conclusions. But as long as the numbers add up to something in your head, you're convinced you've tapped into incontrovertible truth. And relative to Al, two straight months of averaging 23 and 11 is not some arbitrary hot streak. But you'd have to be watching all those games, and the ones he didn't play well in before, to see what I'm talking about.

Unlike you, I'm combining the 'eye test' with stats. You just look at stats, watch a game here or there, and let your predetermined conclusions inform your "observations."

 

[GVC]

We've been down this road over and over. All I need to see are comments like "his on court desire is lacking" and "I don't think he hates losing nearly enough" to confirm that you just don't watch games. You take breaks from Halo to look at numbers and draw overreaching conclusions. But as long as the numbers add up to something in your head, you're convinced you've tapped into incontrovertible truth. And relative to Al, two straight months of averaging 23 and 11 is not some arbitrary hot streak. But you'd have to be watching all those games, and the ones he didn't play well in before, to see what I'm talking about.

Unlike you, I'm combining the 'eye test' with stats. You just look at stats, watch a game here or there, and let your predetermined conclusions inform your "observations."

Even his hot streak wasn't as hot as people around here like to pretend (we've been over this before).

As for predetermined conclusions: Pot.Kettle.Black.

Do you deny that Al's conditioning is poor? That his BBIQ is lacking? That he is inefficient with the ball in his hands? That his teams get consistently outscored by their opponents (much worse than when he's off the court)? As far as I can tell, these are undeniable FACTS. Drooling over his potential at this point is disingenuous. Could he be the next Z-Bo? Sure, and I certainly hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Who's the next inefficient chucker you're going to pimp on these boards?

 

[billyshelby]

Even his hot streak wasn't as hot as people around here like to pretend (we've been over this before).

As for predetermined conclusions: Pot.Kettle.Black.

Do you deny that Al's conditioning is poor? That his BBIQ is lacking? That he is inefficient with the ball in his hands? That his teams get consistently outscored by their opponents (much worse than when he's off the court)? As far as I can tell, these are undeniable FACTS. Drooling over his potential at this point is disingenuous. Could he be the next Z-Bo? Sure, and I certainly hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Who's the next inefficient chucker you're going to pimp on these boards?

His hot streak wasn't that hot? From February to April, like 25 consecutive games, he averaged 24 and 11. Shooting about 54%. You're right he wasn't that hot. He was on fire.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue things like BBIQ with a guy who might have watched 20 games and laughably call his observations FACTS.

Here's an opinion: You would have undoubtedly been one of the Memphis fans who, after definitively analyzing Zach Randolph's stats, determined he was a mediocre power forward and absolutely had to be traded. And I'm sure you wouldn't have bet on his improvement either. You know why?

You don't watch the games. You would have never seen Randolph's skill level. You would have never accounted for his being able to translate that skill to a system. You would have said his 'lack of conditioning' would always hold him back. You would have concluded Zach 'didn't care about losing' or whatever nonsense the numbers told you about a player's psyche.

 

[GVC]

His hot streak wasn't that hot? From February to April, like 25 consecutive games, he averaged 24 and 11. Shooting about 54%. You're right he wasn't that hot. He was on fire.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue things like BBIQ with a guy who might have watched 20 games and laughably call his observations FACTS.

Here's an opinion: You would have undoubtedly been one of the Memphis fans who, after definitively analyzing Zach Randolph's stats, determined he was a mediocre power forward and absolutely had to be traded. And I'm sure you wouldn't have bet on his improvement either. You know why?

You don't watch the games. You would have never seen Randolph's skill level. You would have never accounted for his being able to translate that skill to a system. You would have said his 'lack of conditioning' would always hold him back. You would have concluded Zach 'didn't care about losing' or whatever nonsense the numbers told you about a player's psyche.

You do realize I brought up Zach Randolph already, right? His story is the exception to the rule.

And, as I've stated before, FG% can be a deceptive stat. Big Al doesn't draw fouls, and thus doesn't put as much pressure on the defense as that 54% number seems to indicate. Further, Big Al has yet to figure out how to make plays when he's pressured in the post. When he decides to pass, it generally requires the team to reset the offense with a shortened shot clock, instead of leading to easier shots in the flow of the offense, yet another way he puts little pressure on the defense.

And you don't have to answer my questions (even though I try to address everything you bring up...ignoring the lazy, immature insults, of course). But it's clear you only do so because you know I'm right. Insulting me doesn't change that. Continue if it helps you sleep better at night.

 

[billyshelby]

You do realize I brought up Zach Randolph already, right? His story is the exception to the rule.

And, as I've stated before, FG% can be a deceptive stat. Big Al doesn't draw fouls, and thus doesn;t put as much pressure on the defense as that 54% number seems to indicate. Further, Big Al has yet to figure out how to make plays when he's pressured in the post. When he decides to pass, it generally requires the team to reset the offense with a shortened shot clock, instead of leading to easier shots in the flow of the offense, yet another way he puts little pressure on the defense.

And you don't have to answer my questions. But it's clear you only do so because you know I'm right. Insulting me doesn't change that. Continue if it helps you sleep better at night.

You're right GVC. About everything. Now maybe I can sleep better tonight since I got that off my chest. Sorry for insulting you. It's so unfair since you're never insulting your own posts. I don't know why I watch so many games, but it's obviously confusing me and I want to thank you for pointing that out. I haven't answered your "questions" because I can't. They're just too smart. TS%, adj +/-, nothing else matters, I'm getting it. Keep me posted on how Al does next year since I'll be watching the box scores and waiting on pins and needles for your analysis of how he's doing.

 

[Headtrip]

Even his hot streak wasn't as hot as people around here like to pretend (we've been over this before).

As for predetermined conclusions: Pot.Kettle.Black.

Do you deny that Al's conditioning is poor? That his BBIQ is lacking? That he is inefficient with the ball in his hands? That his teams get consistently outscored by their opponents (much worse than when he's off the court)? As far as I can tell, these are undeniable FACTS. Drooling over his potential at this point is disingenuous. Could he be the next Z-Bo? Sure, and I certainly hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Who's the next inefficient chucker you're going to pimp on these boards?

His conditioning wasn't awesome the entire year, but it did improve quite a bit as the season progressed. The injury that he suffered could have had a lot to do with it, it has taken many athletes a season or two to come back from the same injury. He is reportedly going to work out with Sap in the offseason, and if he does we will be able to see it next year. We will know just how badly he wants to improve himself, it will be in his physique.

As for his BBIQ, you can't judge him in his first year in Utah after trying to learn Sloan's system for half a year and... Well you know the rest. The man needs some stability and some talent around him that's worth a damn.

Big Al is a good player, time and work can make him an all star. I will say that he should be healthy so if he doesn't come back in shape and/or get better at running the system throughout the year (not being in the right place on D and being a black hole on O) then I'll have to start questioning his desire and ability to get better. As of now, it's just too early.

 

[GVC]

And, just so I'm clear, I'm curious how you'd answer the following questions:

1. Does Big Al's conditioning hinder his on-court performance?

2. Does Big Al make good reads from the post (including making passes that lead to high percentage shots for his teammates when they're available)?

3. Does Big Al's hot streak to end the season render moot his career up to that point?

4. Is it unreasonable to bet against Big Al given the path his career has taken thus far?


And, fwiw, I probably only watched 10 - 15 games the second half of the season (I watched most of the games the first half of the season). Most of the games I watched were through NBALP Broadband. I don't play Halo. I wasn't calling my observations FACTS, as I've cited metrics that support the contentions I make. I was cheering for Big Al (and still am), and thought he was an upgrade over Boozer (largely because of his ability to play the 5), but he doesn't seem to grasp team ball. If he comes back next season, looking like he might have lifted a weight for the first time in his life, I might just jump back on the bandwagon.

 

[GVC]

You're right GVC. About everything. Now maybe I can sleep better tonight since I got that off my chest. Sorry for insulting you. It's so unfair since you're never insulting your own posts. I don't know why I watch so many games, but it's obviously confusing me and I want to thank you for pointing that out. I haven't answered your "questions" because I can't. They're just too smart. TS%, adj +/-, nothing else matters, I'm getting it. Keep me posted on how Al does next year since I'll be watching the box scores and waiting on pins and needles for your analysis of how he's doing.

More garbage. I'm not sure what you think you'll win by misrepresenting everything I say, but whatever. Repped accordingly.

 

[jope]

I watched the highlights of the 2nd day the combine again. Derrick Williams moves very well on the agility drills. Better than Jimmer Fredette, and Jordan Hamilton. He has the athletic ability to the play the 3. There is still a lot of work he needs to put in to learn how to defend on the perimeter. But I can see it happening now.

i was thinking the same thing

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I really did like seeing Williams on those agility drills. He changes directions VERY well.

As for the Jefferson/Randolph e-jerking going on, Jefferson has had a noticeably better career through the age of 26, and eerily even career numbers after considering Randolph's two good years in Memphis and half good year as a Clipper.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...m=1&p1=jeffeal01&y1=2011&p2=randoza01&y2=2011

Then you look at the year they were 26 and you see how much better Jefferson was.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...010&p4=randoza01&y4=2009&p5=randoza01&y5=2008

27 was the magic age that Randolph started playing better. No reason not to be optimistic.

 

[billyshelby]

And, just so I'm clear, I'm curious how you'd answer the following questions:

1. Does Big Al's conditioning hinder his on-court performance?

2. Does Big Al make good reads from the post (including making passes that lead to high percentage shots for his teammates when they're available)?

3. Does Big Al's hot streak to end the season render moot his career up to that point?

4. Is it unreasonable to bet against Big Al given the path his career has taken thus far?


And, fwiw, I probably only watched 10 - 15 games the second half of the season (I watched most of the games the first half of the season). Most of the games I watched were through NBALP Broadband. I don't play Halo. I wasn't calling my observations FACTS, as I've cited metrics that support the contentions I make. I was cheering for Big Al (and still am), and thought he was an upgrade over Boozer (largely because of his ability to play the 5), but he doesn't seem to grasp team ball. If he comes back next season, looking like he might have lifted a weight for the first time in his life, I might just jump back on the bandwagon.

I'm not derailing this thread to answer questions I've already answered in other threads. I've even acknowledged in the past that TS% and adj. +/- are factors that should be used in the total analysis of a player. What I take issue with is the fact you allow for absolutely no context to the numbers (the teams Al played for, the systems ran, our offense last year, his unique skills, etc.) For you, select numbers tell the entire picture of a player. As I've said, I'm not surprised anyone who barely watches games (and by your own admission saw little of Al's second half stretch) would come to the conclusions you have.

 

[billyshelby]

More garbage. I'm not sure what you think you'll win by misrepresenting everything I say, but whatever. Repped accordingly.

Oh no. Not a neg rep. Anything but that.

 

[Bodhi]

I'm not derailing this thread to answer questions I've already answered in other threads.

Is that even still an option at this point?

 

[GVC]

For you, select numbers tell the entire picture of a player.

Only that's complete ********. And , FWIW, I don't recall you ever directly answering these questions, even in the appropriate threads. You avoid discussion with anyone who disagrees with your "eye test" only analysis. It's the only way you've held onto CJ for so long.

 

[billyshelby]

Only that's complete ********. And , FWIW, I don't recall you ever directly answering these questions, even in the appropriate threads. You avoid discussion with anyone who disagrees with your "eye test" only analysis. It's the only way you've held onto CJ for so long.

Look dude, I'm very confident you will continue to post about how worthless Al is all summer. Even though I actually have answered your questions, and you're free to look, I'll repeat myself when it comes up again. This thread is about Williams and it should stay that way.