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Stats for the wings.

gregbroncs

gregbroncs

Well-Known Member
I was curious how the team stats looked when our wings are on the floor. It seems while looking that Bell has been better and so have Hayward and CJ. Looking at 82 Games.com it looks to me like Bell is still our worst wing by far in every way.

W/L while on the floor
Bell 23.1%
Burks 80%
Miles 61.5%
Hayward 50%
Howard 70%

Their Simple rating
Bell -12.3
Burks +10.3
Miles -0.4
Hayward -0.1
Howard +1.7

+/-
Bell -45
Burks +48
Miles +36
Hayward -18
Howard +36

Offense Points per possession
Bell 1.0
Burks 1.12
Miles 1.05
Hayward 1.01
Howard 1.09

Defense Points per possession
Bell 1.08
Burks .92
Miles .97
Hayward 1.02
Howard 1.01

So in every stat I can see Bell is by far the worst wing on our team. Some of that has to do with playing against starters. However that does not seem to affect Hayward nearly as bad as Bell. Also troubling is that his defensive PPP is the worst by far, for the entire team(excluding Evans who has not played nearly enough). Not only are these stats the worst in every category for the wings but also for the team as a whole.

I am going to keep a watch on these stats for the rest of the season. I am curious to see how they change as the season goes on. But for right now I am having a hard time figuring out why Bell is getting more minutes on the wings than all but Hayward. To me looking at this it seems that Burks definitely deserves more minutes and that they should come at Bell's expense.
 
Thanks for the stats. I'm just so past the point of being convinced I want to see more Burks than Bell (or CJ) that I don't even care what the stats are .. but I appreciate them anyway.
 
No class and petty of me, but ...

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He does next to nothing on O. The occassional open jumper but no passing, no drives, no ball handling, no rebounds.

I would agree that his D is over-rated also. He stays with his man but no team D: few steals, rebounds, blocks, help, etc etc.

Way over-rated in the mind of Ty. Looks like we get a 3 or 4 game period to test without R Bell in the line-up.
 
gregbroncs said:
I was curious how the team stats looked when our wings are on the floor. It seems while looking that Bell has been better and so have Hayward and CJ. Looking at 82 Games.com it looks to me like Bell is still our worst wing by far in every way.

W/L while on the floor
Bell 23.1%
Burks 80%
Miles 61.5%
Hayward 50%
Howard 70%

Their Simple rating
Bell -12.3
Burks +10.3
Miles -0.4
Hayward -0.1
Howard +1.7

+/-
Bell -45
Burks +48
Miles +36
Hayward -18
Howard +36

Offense Points per possession
Bell 1.0
Burks 1.12
Miles 1.05
Hayward 1.01
Howard 1.09

Defense Points per possession
Bell 1.08
Burks .92
Miles .97
Hayward 1.02
Howard 1.01

So in every stat I can see Bell is by far the worst wing on our team. Some of that has to do with playing against starters. However that does not seem to affect Hayward nearly as bad as Bell. Also troubling is that his defensive PPP is the worst by far, for the entire team(excluding Evans who has not played nearly enough). Not only are these stats the worst in every category for the wings but also for the team as a whole.

I am going to keep a watch on these stats for the rest of the season. I am curious to see how they change as the season goes on. But for right now I am having a hard time figuring out why Bell is getting more minutes on the wings than all but Hayward. To me looking at this it seems that Burks definitely deserves more minutes and that they should come at Bell's expense.
Click to expand...

It is also interesting that as bad as Bell is in comparison to the other wings, Burks is that impressive in the stats you bring to the table. Burks, unless I missed something as I quickly read through that, is the best wing in every category.

Here's another stat for people who think - right or wrong - that stats like you provided are meaningless. In the 12 games that Burks has played 8 or more minutes, the Jazz are 10-2. The Jazz are 1-5 when he plays less than 8 minutes. So, stats or no stats, the fact is the Jazz are not hurt by Burks playing significant minutes (an argument could be made that they are better when he plays more minutes, but I won't even go there), therefore there is no good argument to be made for keeping him on the bench. Yet for the most part, if all the wings are healthy, Burks simply doesn't play.

Corbin, in my mind, has done a pretty damn good job this season. The fact that the Jazz are 11-7 or whatever their record is right now, is a minor miracle in my mind. But on the issue of Burks playing time, he's missing the mark.
 
seattlejazzfan said:
It is also interesting that as bad as Bell is in comparison to the other wings, Burks is that impressive in the stats you bring to the table. Burks, unless I missed something as I quickly read through that, is the best wing in every category.

Here's another stat for people who think - right or wrong - that stats like you provided are meaningless. In the 12 games that Burks has played 8 or more minutes, the Jazz are 10-2. The Jazz are 1-5 when he plays less than 8 minutes. So, stats or no stats, the fact is the Jazz are not hurt by Burks playing significant minutes (an argument could be made that they are better when he plays more minutes, but I won't even go there), therefore there is no good argument to be made for keeping him on the bench. Yet for the most part, if all the wings are healthy, Burks simply doesn't play.

Corbin, in my mind, has done a pretty damn good job this season. The fact that the Jazz are 11-7 or whatever their record is right now, is a minor miracle in my mind. But on the issue of Burks playing time, he's missing the mark.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.... plus just watching the games it always seems that when he comes in the good things he does greatly out wiegh the bad.
What i find strange is that some of the seemingly most knowledgeable posters on this forum are always saying that burks looks lost, and doesn't pass well enough, and make rookie mistakes etc etc blah blah blah.... I just see a very talented basketball player giving 100% effort.
He crashes the boards well for a SG, his 3 point shot has been better than advertised, he pressures ball handlers and fights through screens, he gets to the line alot, he creates his own shot and shots for others, and he seems to have a good attitude.
I not sure why he receives ANY hate from posters on this site.... The only criticism that i think he deserves is that he tries too hard which gets him into turnover trouble now and then.
 
All good points, 'fishonjazz'. Burks appears to me to be VERY coachable and is a quick study to boot. He translates stuff from practice to the game very quickly. If Raja sits for any length of time, Burks could force Ty to play him a lot more. Yes, he does get out of control at times, but not nearly as badly as most rooks do. And his outside shot ain't as bad as some folks think; I understand Hornacek has been working with him on that and we're seeing good results!
 
Playing considerably shorter mins, generally going up against 2nd units and having played garbage mins. seems to help Burks' stats BUT what is undeniable is that he plays hard and commits himself to defense 100% and he is a very good defender already. He is fearless out there, sometimes trying to do too much, being over-aggressive. But, as Matt always says, "I love the aggressive nature of X", x being Burks for this matter.

Bell has been consistent shooting the ball and hopefully he continues to be that way. His stats will get better, I believe. I'm surprised in a good way by Miles' PPP producrtion and OPPP. The Jazz need him to be active on offensive end much more.
 
BabyPeterzz said:
So...what do any of those stats mean OP?
Click to expand...

W/L while on the floor. I believe this basically says that while a player is on the floor for a game this is the % of the time the team outscored the opponent during that time.

Raja FWIW is the only sub 50% player on our team. And by far the worst in this category.

Offensive and defensive Points per possession is the # of points scored by a team per time they have the ball. Raja being both the worst on the team in # of points scored and # of points the opponent scores is about as telling a stat as I see here. The fact that not only does his seeming lack of any contribution offensively hurt. But also that his defensive contribution is way overrated.

Their simple rating seems to be a production rating based on on court/ off court production. (could be wrong here though)

+/- fairly obvious. When Raja has played this year the team has scored 48 less points than their opponents.


So while Raja has the best FG% and the best 3PT% of our wings. These team based rating stats seem to show that it is not enough to overcome his lack of shot attempts and severly overrated defense. Shooting %'s only have real meaning if you shoot. Raja shoots far to seldom to be a threat and he seems to negatively effect the defense and offense of the team as a whole.
 
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