Stephen Jackson calls out Utah fans now.

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I was there. Didn't realize there was a video. You got a link?

I'll scour FB's worthless page tomorrow and see if I can find it. I'd like to hear you're take on it though.

If it were me sitting next to that girl or within hearing distance I probably would have walked over into the black area of the crowd, as the comedian explained it, and asked to sit on a chair or give kneeling shoulder rubs if there weren't any. Whisper in their ears this is white power or something dumb.

 

[Gameface]

I'll scour FB's worthless page tomorrow and see if I can find it. I'd like to hear you're take on it though.

If it were me sitting next to that girl or within hearing distance I probably would have walked over into the black area of the crowd, as the comedian explained it, and asked to sit on a chair or give kneeling shoulder rubs if there weren't any. Whisper in their ears this is white power or something dumb.

I wasn't sure what she said, just knew she blurted something out and the comedian stopped and basically said "Did you seriously just yell 'white power' at me?" And then he was like wow and was kind of beside himself for a minute. Then security was getting ready to kick her out and he said to let her stay but to cut her off and when he said that one of her friends said she should have been cut off more than an hour ago. The comedian gathered himself and finished his act. She was held back and escorted out a different exit after the show. The comedian greeted everyone as we left the show and I shook his hand.

I'd like to see the video because I read the SLTrib article about it and I'm pretty sure my wife is one of the people who yelled back at her and I wonder if it's in the video.

A month or so before we went to the same place and saw a hispanic female (I can't remember her name) and towards the end of her routine when she was talking about racial issues and stuff a woman blurted out to her to "You don't know anything about us. Go back to your own country." Security was on that one as well but the comedian stopped them from kicking her out. My wife was yelling at that woman too and security told her to be quiet.

 

[Safetydan]

I would argue, that of all "American" cultures, Utah is a lot more open. Very few "white" populations have as much experience with other cultures as Mormons. Most of the active Mormon men and many of the women have spent a good amount of time actually living in a different culture. None of them come home not respecting what they went through. Consequently, many of those returned missionaries have seen racism on a scale they wouldn't experience in the United States, depending on where they went.

Living for a while in Russia helped to understand the United states of the 50's a lot more when it came to race relations. It also served as a good focal point for the progress we have made.

Additionally, most Mormons have a pretty good idea of the mixed heritage they came from, probably more than any other group of people on Earth.

I agree that most returned missionaries, in general, have been exposed to a single different culture for a two year span. The problem is that the majority of those missionaries are there to convert members of another culture to an American religion. That's fine but it doesn't lend itself well to breaking out of an ethnocentric mindset. I know from my experiences that very few of my fellow missionaries, in actuality, grew to fully respect and appreciate the culture they were immersed in. In fact, many of them were disrespectful of the culture and there was a strong sense of false superiority. Which is ironic and sadly hypocritical. This isn't an outlier. The attitude exists because the belief that other cultures need to convert to Mormonism to be saved exists and also because we're not actually immersed in the culture. We carry objectives and goals into their culture and the baggage prevents us, barely even adults, from learning the lessons we should be learning from exposure to different cultures. Instead of being an enlightened people, I think returned missionaries become more unconsciously entrenched in ethnocentric attitudes. They think they've learned to love and respect a separate culture and have convinced themselves of that but in reality have simply become convinced of their own culture's superiority.

This is all good for the Church because when a missionary actually does learn to appreciate and love a different culture the result is often a degree of inactivity.

I think the above is also tied directly to the implicit kind of unconscious racism of the area too. We're super convinced that we're not racist, like at all. How could we be? WE LIVED IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FOR TWO YEARS AND WE TOTALLY LOVED THE PEOPLE THERE. PLEASE GET BAPTIZED!

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I agree that most returned missionaries, in general, have been exposed to a single different culture for a two year span. The problem is that the majority of those missionaries are there to convert members of another culture to an American religion. That's fine but it doesn't lend itself well to breaking out of an ethnocentric mindset. I know from my experiences that very few of my fellow missionaries, in actuality, grew to fully respect and appreciate the culture they were immersed in. In fact, many of them were disrespectful of the culture and there was a strong sense of false superiority. Which is ironic and sadly hypocritical. This isn't an outlier. The attitude exists because the belief that other cultures need to convert to Mormonism to be saved exists and also because we're not actually immersed in the culture. We carry objectives and goals into their culture and the baggage prevents us, barely even adults, from learning the lessons we should be learning from exposure to different cultures. Instead of being an enlightened people, I think returned missionaries become more unconsciously entrenched in ethnocentric attitudes. They think they've learned to love and respect a separate culture and have convinced themselves of that but in reality have simply become convinced of their own culture's superiority.

This is all good for the Church because when a missionary actually does learn to appreciate and love a different culture the result is often a degree of inactivity.

I think the above is also tied directly to the implicit kind of unconscious racism of the area too. We're super convinced that we're not racist, like at all. How could we be? WE LIVED IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FOR TWO YEARS AND WE TOTALLY LOVED THE PEOPLE THERE. PLEASE GET BAPTIZED!

There may be something in what you say here, for some missionaries that go out. I have a hard time generalizing to saying "the majority" on any blanket statements like this. For sure there is a difficulty in truly being in or immersed in a culture when you are protected by a bubble of rules and the fact that you are are teaching the gospel 24/7. It's more like being a boat while the river is the culture, vs swimming in it. Missionaries are taught to love the people, not necessarily to love the culture. I know that in many cases loving the culture will come naturally if you actually do love the people. To truly care about someone you need to understand them, and to understand them it stands to reason that you should understand their culture, then understand where they stand in regards to it, and even those two things are only a small part of the equation.

I don't think that a culture needs to convert to "Mormonism". You can be a member of the LDS Church and still be a part of your own culture, even if that part is changed a bit. Are you specifically talking about Utah LDS culture, or LDS church culture in general? I believe it is quite different pretty much everywhere. The LDS culture in Cali is different than that in Utah, than that on the east coast, more different even still in other countries. My experiences seem to be different than yours, so I'm thinking the truth of it in general is varied with data points all over the place as opposed to the data point of what you feel is the case for all missionaries.

Its still an individual thing that is hard to generalize to a whole group like this

Also about culture, it is constantly in flux, and different based on location. Culture moves, migrates, and changes constantly. I also don't think gaining a love for a culture has a huge impact on being or not being racist. I also think pretty much everybody tends to think their own beliefs, culture, country, team, neighborhood, family, friends, socks are better than others out there, but that does not mean they hate the other ones out there. That is something learned. The LDS Church teaches all members to love other people, and the idea that members of the LDS church feel they are right in that it is the one church with the authority of God and has more Truth than other churches does not mean people of other faiths or no faith are less than it's members as individuals. I'm a Jazz fan, I like the team, the players, the coaches, the owners, the organization, the city... much better than other teams, players, organizations, cities. Does that mean I think the Jazz are better than the Rockets or the Warriors this year? No. Does it mean I hate the other teams because I like my team better? No. In the same vein, why would me liking my Church and believing it is true and the best for me automatically mean I am better than everyone else and that I am now a "passive racist" or whatever it was termed? I know it's not a perfect comparison, but it catches the main points.

I see what some of you think about the LDS Church, and members of the church, and pushing the idea that there is some sort of passive racism or whatever you want to call it going on.

I disagree. Are there individuals that are church members that are racist, probably. Is that something taught by the Church, not to my understanding. Are there things taught that could be taken that way, I can see that because I have seen numbers of things taken a different way than my view of what is intended. Are there portions of the Bible and Book of Mormon that talk about dark skin, and curses, and markings to distinguish from the people of God, yes. Does that mean that people with lighter or darker skin are better or worse than someone else, no it does not. Was there a time in church history when people with dark skin were not allowed to hold the Priesthood, yes there was. Do I fully understand why this was the case, I do not. Do I think the church leaders were perfect and made every right decision in their lives, no way.

This next part, I know some of you will scoff and mock, but it is true for me so I will say it.

While I don't have answers to all of these things and some of the difficult things that have happened in the history of the church. I do know for myself that God is real, that Jesus is truly the Christ taught in the Bible and Book of Mormon, that Joseph Smith did see God and Christ and did do necessary things to bring Christs church back with the organization and proper authority. There are other things I know that are a foundation for me which allow me to take the time I need to work out the rest, and some of these more difficult/challenging questions. With what I do know from God, I feel comfortable with taking time figuring out the rest following the pattern I learned in gaining what I have already from God.

I also know that all people no matter the color, culture, age, gender are equally as important and loved by God. I don't see color other than at times as an easy way to narrow down the possibilities in Utah when trying to describe a person to another person when hair color, eye color, clothing doesn't help.

I know some people would like to label me a racist because I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and believe it's teachings, but I refute that. I also understand some of you will claim I am in this bucket that thinks I am not, but "really am", and I think that is weak.

I like DM, Favors, pretty much the whole team and coaching staff. I don't like Hayward, Lyles, Burke, Kanter. My dislike comes from individual experiences toward our team & State from them or their crews. ijazz was annoying.

I personally think most of the LDS Jazz fans are like me in this. There is no blatant, or hidden racism. I think the theories and racism litmus tests, and dogwhistle conversations are flawed, blurry, and steered toward seeing something.

Sorry/notsorry for the book. Please excuse the spelling, grammar, and readability errors, I'm out of time and my editor is not available.

 

[framer]

I agree that most returned missionaries, in general, have been exposed to a single different culture for a two year span. The problem is that the majority of those missionaries are there to convert members of another culture to an American religion. That's fine but it doesn't lend itself well to breaking out of an ethnocentric mindset. I know from my experiences that very few of my fellow missionaries, in actuality, grew to fully respect and appreciate the culture they were immersed in. In fact, many of them were disrespectful of the culture and there was a strong sense of false superiority. Which is ironic and sadly hypocritical. This isn't an outlier. The attitude exists because the belief that other cultures need to convert to Mormonism to be saved exists and also because we're not actually immersed in the culture. We carry objectives and goals into their culture and the baggage prevents us, barely even adults, from learning the lessons we should be learning from exposure to different cultures. Instead of being an enlightened people, I think returned missionaries become more unconsciously entrenched in ethnocentric attitudes. They think they've learned to love and respect a separate culture and have convinced themselves of that but in reality have simply become convinced of their own culture's superiority.

This is all good for the Church because when a missionary actually does learn to appreciate and love a different culture the result is often a degree of inactivity.

I think the above is also tied directly to the implicit kind of unconscious racism of the area too. We're super convinced that we're not racist, like at all. How could we be? WE LIVED IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FOR TWO YEARS AND WE TOTALLY LOVED THE PEOPLE THERE. PLEASE GET BAPTIZED!

The projection and lack of self awareness here straight up stings.

"In fact, many of them were disrespectful of the culture and there was a strong sense of false superiority."

Physician, heal thyself.

The fact that you think that someone living for two years in different parts of a different country is subjected to just one culture is pretty damn racist and restricting (if we measure by the same standard.) Obviously, I don't really think you are racist, but you are talking out of your behind. If you served in a foreign mission and didn't respect the people, obviously that is what you are going to see in other people.

I suspect the when you say "We carry objectives and goals into their culture and the baggage prevents us, barely even adults, from learning the lessons we should be learning from exposure to different cultures" you are referring to some other damn Mormon racist and not yourself, then?

I'm not even going to bring up the fact that some cultures are, in fact, measurably better than others. And culture does not often equal race.

 

[Safetydan]

There may be something in what you say here, for some missionaries that go out. I have a hard time generalizing to saying "the majority" on any blanket statements like this. For sure there is a difficulty in truly being in or immersed in a culture when you are protected by a bubble of rules and the fact that you are are teaching the gospel 24/7. It's more like being a boat while the river is the culture, vs swimming in it. Missionaries are taught to love the people, not necessarily to love the culture. I know that in many cases loving the culture will come naturally if you actually do love the people. To truly care about someone you need to understand them, and to understand them it stands to reason that you should understand their culture, then understand where they stand in regards to it, and even those two things are only a small part of the equation.

I'm saying that, in my opinion, using the term "majority" is accurate because I feel that, at the very least half, are included. Generalizing and blanket statements are bad because we include all and that's not what I'm doing. I agree that you can't really love a people if you don't understand and immerse yourself in their culture. I will say this: We're going there with the purpose of saving people and we "love" them so we're helping them out. This, under the umbrella of Mormonism sounds altruistic but the implication derived from that viewed from a reasonable third party or the culture in question is nothing good. The young impressionable young minds going out are, no doubt, going to have conscious or unconscious notions of cultural and religious superiority in their minds. My question is why wouldn't they? Most of what we teach carries this implicit message. We also say, you know "respect the culture" "love the people" as we actively try to convert people to baptism into the Mormon Church. Seems like a serious mixed message to me.

I don't think that a culture needs to convert to "Mormonism". You can be a member of the LDS Church and still be a part of your own culture, even if that part is changed a bit. Are you specifically talking about Utah LDS culture, or LDS church culture in general? I believe it is quite different pretty much everywhere. The LDS culture in Cali is different than that in Utah, than that on the east coast, more different even still in other countries. My experiences seem to be different than yours, so I'm thinking the truth of it in general is varied with data points all over the place as opposed to the data point of what you feel is the case for all missionaries.

Yeah, I think the religion and the culture are so intertwined that they're nearly indistinguishable or maybe one can't be considered without the other. I agree that the LDS cultures vary here and there. My qualm is mostly with Utah LDS culture which is what the topic was pertaining to in the first place: Racism in Utah???. I think my argument applies intermittently to some other hotspots of LDS activity too. The teachings are the same and we're still trying to save people from themselves and all that so why not? Sociology is never a perfect science since we're dealing with people who have minds of their own, but the principle is, generally going to stay fairly consistent. If people are overcoming the implicit ethnocentrism of Mormon teachings, it's in spite of the environment and conditioning, not due to them.

I also don't think gaining a love for a culture has a huge impact on being or not being racist. I also think pretty much everybody tends to think their own beliefs, culture, country, team, neighborhood, family, friends, socks are better than others out there, but that does not mean they hate the other ones out there. That is something learned. The LDS Church teaches all members to love other people, and the idea that members of the LDS church feel they are right in that it is the one church with the authority of God and has more Truth than other churches does not mean people of other faiths or no faith are less than it's members as individuals.

Aha, but it does. Gaining love for and fully understanding a culture separate from your own has a strong (huge) impact on racism.

I agree that a lot of people think their own beliefs, culture, country, team, neighborhood, family, friends and socks are better than others. I also agree that it's not explicit hate. It doesn't counter the fact that in most cases it's actually wrong factually and morally (in most cases because I'm not a strict proponent of cultural relativism. I think to properly criticize a culture, one most fully understand and appreciate every nuance there-in). It is the root of many of the worlds problems, this tribal thinking. It breeds passive and active racism, ethnocentrism, tribal superiority and whatever else you want to call it. The only counter to it is to gain a love and deep understanding for other cultures. The LDS teaches to love other people through the lens of "hey we need to help them see that they need to be Mormons" It's motivating people to care enough to proselyte without actually paying anybody for their services.


Anyways, yes culture flows and ebbs and changes over time. I'm not sure how that is relevant. Loving a static culture and a moving culture is irrelevant just as the LDS church members don't actually gain perspective on a separate culture through missionary work whether it's changing or not. The teachings and mission statements of the church undercut the members and missionaries ability to gain culture empathy through missionary work and instead breeds the opposite. This results in a strong passive, unconscious feeling of culture superiority which, in some, definitely turns racist.

I read the rest of your post but I'm not replying to it because--I'm sorry because I like you Spazz--but it got really off the rails there. I think I understand your counterpoints fairly well.

 

[Archie Moses]

This thread has been a good read. Thanks to all who've contributed.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I don't think that a culture needs to convert to "Mormonism". You can be a member of the LDS Church and still be a part of your own culture, even if that part is changed a bit.

I think a lot of LDS feel this way. But there are also a number of LDS who conflate their love for the institution with their nationalist patriotism.

Are you specifically talking about Utah LDS culture, or LDS church culture in general? I believe it is quite different pretty much everywhere. The LDS culture in Cali is different than that in Utah, than that on the east coast, more different even still in other countries.

This gets to the heart of the problem in Utah. I lived in California for six years, and Seattle for three years. I completely agree that the LDS religious culture is different outside of Utah, and the reason is important: Utah is basically Italy for the LDS church, and Salt Lake City is the equivalent of Rome. So the LDS experience is certainly different here because the religious community is in close proximity to not only the hierarchy of the church, but also their extended families which overlaps keenly with the bloodlines from the original gangsta Mormons that arrived here in 1847 straight outta Nauvoo.

The LDS people that move to SLC from outside of that Venn diagram always seem to have a difficult time fitting in with the LDS that grew up here, and the reason is that there is a long tradition of prestige and cache here that comes with being associated with that group. Being related to a Romney, a Marriott, a Kimball, a Dansie, Etc., Etc., puts one into a separate & revered category, and ultimately determines the circles that you associate with. They don't mix with outsiders eagerly, and never have, because the roots of their arrival here coincides with being originally being outsiders that absolutely got their asses kicked out of the US by roaming mobs.

That caste system that exists in the LDS community is the problem here, not the church per se. There are a lot of traditions extant in that group that outsiders do not hold on to. Old doctrines, stuff like that. Some of that material directly relates to the racism extant in LDS history. Some of them still disagree with lifting the ban on blacks.

Are there individuals that are church members that are racist, probably. Is that something taught by the Church, not to my understanding.

I think it really depends on who your grand folks are, and what they are interested in getting across to you.

I personally think most of the LDS Jazz fans are like me in this. There is no blatant, or hidden racism. I think the theories and racism litmus tests, and dogwhistle conversations are flawed, blurry, and steered toward seeing something.

"Most" is likely correct. But most LDS was never the issue here. For some, there is certainly racism both blatant and implicit. Add that to a community that is largely averse to reading actual history books, or even apprehending its own history, and what you get is a group that is forced to gain its understanding from its own traditions.

When one discusses the police, it's the bad apples that truly give the rest of the force a bad name. The LDS people have a similar difficulty in disassociating themselves from their worst examples because they are trained to respond to criticism by defending the brand instead of doing the difficult work of rooting out the monolithic traditions that have historically done them harm. I'm not going to mock your testimony, but I will insist that education is the real cure here.

 

[bigmike]

A lot of people are really unhappy with Jazz fans in Utah these days.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I'm not even going to bring up the fact that some cultures are, in fact, measurably better than others. And culture does not often equal race.

Case in point.

 

[Safetydan]

The projection and lack of self awareness here straight up stings.

"In fact, many of them were disrespectful of the culture and there was a strong sense of false superiority."

Physician, heal thyself.

The fact that you think that someone living for two years in different parts of a different country is subjected to just one culture is pretty damn racist and restricting (if we measure by the same standard.) Obviously, I don't really think you are racist, but you are talking out of your behind. If you served in a foreign mission and didn't respect the people, obviously that is what you are going to see in other people.

I suspect the when you say "We carry objectives and goals into their culture and the baggage prevents us, barely even adults, from learning the lessons we should be learning from exposure to different cultures" you are referring to some other damn Mormon racist and not yourself, then?

I'm not even going to bring up the fact that some cultures are, in fact, measurably better than others. And culture does not often equal race.

Can you rephrase this? I'm having trouble getting a hold of your point.

As to your last sentence: I agree that absolute cultural relativism is a false concept and that cultures can be better than others. This truth is somewhat unfortunate for Utah Mormon culture

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I'm saying that, in my opinion, using the term "majority" is accurate because I feel that, at the very least half, are included. Generalizing and blanket statements are bad because we include all and that's not what I'm doing. I agree that you can't really love a people if you don't understand and immerse yourself in their culture. I will say this: We're going there with the purpose of saving people and we "love" them so we're helping them out. This, under the umbrella of Mormonism sounds altruistic but the implication derived from that viewed from a reasonable third party or the culture in question is nothing good. The young impressionable young minds going out are, no doubt, going to have conscious or unconscious notions of cultural and religious superiority in their minds. My question is why wouldn't they? Most of what we teach carries this implicit message. We also say, you know "respect the culture" "love the people" as we actively try to convert people to baptism into the Mormon Church. Seems like a serious mixed message to me.



Yeah, I think the religion and the culture are so intertwined that they're nearly indistinguishable or maybe one can't be considered without the other. I agree that the LDS cultures vary here and there. My qualm is mostly with Utah LDS culture which is what the topic was pertaining to in the first place: Racism in Utah???. I think my argument applies intermittently to some other hotspots of LDS activity too. The teachings are the same and we're still trying to save people from themselves and all that so why not? Sociology is never a perfect science since we're dealing with people who have minds of their own, but the principle is, generally going to stay fairly consistent. If people are overcoming the implicit ethnocentrism of Mormon teachings, it's in spite of the environment and conditioning, not due to them.



Aha, but it does. Gaining love for and fully understanding a culture separate from your own has a strong (huge) impact on racism.

I agree that a lot of people think their own beliefs, culture, country, team, neighborhood, family, friends and socks are better than others. I also agree that it's not explicit hate. It doesn't counter the fact that in most cases it's actually wrong factually and morally (in most cases because I'm not a strict proponent of cultural relativism. I think to properly criticize a culture, one most fully understand and appreciate every nuance there-in). It is the root of many of the worlds problems, this tribal thinking. It breeds passive and active racism, ethnocentrism, tribal superiority and whatever else you want to call it. The only counter to it is to gain a love and deep understanding for other cultures. The LDS teaches to love other people through the lens of "hey we need to help them see that they need to be Mormons" It's motivating people to care enough to proselyte without actually paying anybody for their services.


Anyways, yes culture flows and ebbs and changes over time. I'm not sure how that is relevant. Loving a static culture and a moving culture is irrelevant just as the LDS church members don't actually gain perspective on a separate culture through missionary work whether it's changing or not. The teachings and mission statements of the church undercut the members and missionaries ability to gain culture empathy through missionary work and instead breeds the opposite. This results in a strong passive, unconscious feeling of culture superiority which, in some, definitely turns racist.

I read the rest of your post but I'm not replying to it because--I'm sorry because I like you Spazz--but it got really off the rails there. I think I understand your counterpoints fairly well.

Thanks for your responses. Yes, I did go way off the rails and combined responding to you with blabbering on about what other people posted recently too.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I think a lot of LDS feel this way. But there are also a number of LDS who conflate their love for the institution with their nationalist patriotism.



This gets to the heart of the problem in Utah. I lived in California for six years, and Seattle for three years. I completely agree that the LDS religious culture is different outside of Utah, and the reason is important: Utah is basically Italy for the LDS church, and Salt Lake City is the equivalent of Rome. So the LDS experience is certainly different here because the religious community is in close proximity to not only the hierarchy of the church, but also their extended families which overlaps keenly with the bloodlines from the original gangsta Mormons that arrived here in 1847 straight outta Nauvoo.

The LDS people that move to SLC from outside of that Venn diagram always seem to have a difficult time fitting in with the LDS that grew up here, and the reason is that there is a long tradition of prestige and cache here that comes with being associated with that group. Being related to a Romney, a Marriott, a Kimball, a Dansie, Etc., Etc., puts one into a separate & revered category, and ultimately determines the circles that you associate with. They don't mix with outsiders eagerly, and never have, because the roots of their arrival here coincides with being originally being outsiders that absolutely got their asses kicked out of the US by roaming mobs.

That caste system that exists in the LDS community is the problem here, not the church per se. There are a lot of traditions extant in that group that outsiders do not hold on to. Old doctrines, stuff like that. Some of that material directly relates to the racism extant in LDS history. Some of them still disagree with lifting the ban on blacks.



I think it really depends on who your grand folks are, and what they are interested in getting across to you.



"Most" is likely correct. But most LDS was never the issue here. For some, there is certainly racism both blatant and implicit. Add that to a community that is largely averse to reading actual history books, or even apprehending its own history, and what you get is a group that is forced to gain its understanding from its own traditions.

When one discusses the police, it's the bad apples that truly give the rest of the force a bad name. The LDS people have a similar difficulty in disassociating themselves from their worst examples because they are trained to respond to criticism by defending the brand instead of doing the difficult work of rooting out the monolithic traditions that have historically done them harm. I'm not going to mock your testimony, but I will insist that education is the real cure here.

Thanks for replying. I do think a few "bad apples" do give others in the same city, religion, culture, family, whatever... a bad name.

 

[Jahquan3]

I've heard this sort of thing for years. Sadly a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

 

[framer]

Can you rephrase this? I'm having trouble getting a hold of your point.

As to your last sentence: I agree that absolute cultural relativism is a false concept and that cultures can be better than others. This truth is somewhat unfortunate for Utah Mormon culture

Case in point.

If you are going to argue that all cultures are equally valid and "good" you are either just being a troll or you truly are a moron. I don't believe you ARE a moron, so c'mon now. You really think that culturally, Nazism is a valid choice? How about the human sacrificing aspect of Aztec culture?

On a more specific note, the American culture of providing foldable toilet paper and broom handles longer than 3 feet long is a far superior cultural innovation than what happens in Russia.

 

[Safetydan]

If you are going to argue that all cultures are equally valid and "good" you are either just being a troll or you truly are a moron. I don't believe you ARE a moron, so c'mon now. You really think that culturally, Nazism is a valid choice? How about the human sacrificing aspect of Aztec culture?

On a more specific note, the American culture of providing foldable toilet paper and broom handles longer than 3 feet long is a far superior cultural innovation than what happens in Russia.

Re-read my post youngblood.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I've heard this sort of thing for years. Sadly a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

I purposefully did not use the word "few". I think it's considerable. But the LDS culture that comes from the Nauvoo group is probably more like a 6th of what constitutes church membership these days, so it is also not "most".

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

On a more specific note, the American culture of providing foldable toilet paper and broom handles longer than 3 feet long is a far superior cultural innovation than what happens in Russia.

You sound like you had it pretty rough, but techno-innovations do not make one culture "superior" to another.

We taught a Russian in California, and he went out of his way to let us know that he agreed with the Priesthood ban on blacks (even though this was in 1993). But when we asked him about his country, he described rich traditions associated with food, dancing, and folklore. He lamented the "nothing" culture here in the US that is focused on consumerism.

Had I known about their brooms, perhaps I would have brought it up.

 

[Deleted member 95]

Btw Stephen Jackson signed that jail suit picture after the game and mentioned the poster wielder was not racist and a great guy

Sent from my SM-T580 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Btw Stephen Jackson signed that jail suit picture after the game and mentioned the poster wielder was not racist and a great guy

Sent from my SM-T580 using JazzFanz mobile app

Stahp, your ruining it.