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Summer League Thread

Saint Cy of JFC said:
As Stitches pointed out, the sample size is not enough to make these kinds of claims.
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LOL yes... pointing out that the league does not pump out a huge sample of pro prospects over a 10 year period is a big positive.
 
stitches said:
IMO the red flag in the Franks and Sekou and Bilal's pre-draft profiles was their actual play and lack of offensive polish(manifesting in low usage) rather than the league they were playing in. IMO you would have been able to see that in pretty much any league they played in, including in D1 basketball in the US. Unless the league is complete dog **** and they are facing zero resistance(I would consider French Youth leagues in that category), you should be good just watching them play and making your mind on what they are actually showing on the court...
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Right but the next level connection that some of us are making is putting those two things together. Low production in that league. That kind of production in college does not land you in the lotto but if you are in a pro league its assumed there is more to offer. Its not Xenophobic though lol. So drafting those guys high has a rough history... does not mean it has to repeat though.

If Bilal was doing Luka **** or Wemby **** well that's different.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Right but the next level connection that some of us are making is putting those two things together. Low production in that league. That kind of production in college does not land you in the lotto but if you are in a pro league its assumed there is more to offer. Its not Xenophobic though lol. So drafting those guys high has a rough history... does not mean it has to repeat though.

If Bilal was doing Luka **** or Wemby **** well that's different.
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It's not xenophobia, but directing comparing production across leagues is just being plain stupid.

It comes down to being incredibly lazy once again. This idea that two prospects who put up similar basic box score stats must be similar players.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You are the one in this discussion simply tying them to being French. That is not what it is... I will tell you what the connection is

Player A - 5 pts, 2 rebs, 1.4 ast 48/43/62 shooting splits 18 minutes per game
Player B - 5 pts, 3 rebs, .8 asst 53/45/60 shooting splits 18 minutes per game

Both played in the same league... both touted as guys that would be on ball... both top 10 picks... both with great physical profiles... You could tell me which player is which I'm sure... but I bet most others would be pretty split.

So yeah its not Xenophobic or based on where their parents had sex or whatever that makes people think they have seen this movie before. Its skepticism based on a guy with similar production in the same league who had similar upside. I'm not writing the kid off just saying its okay to compare them and be a bit skeptical on what you might be buying into with Bilal. Does not mean he will be Frankie Smokes.
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You can't just say I'm the one tying to them being French lol. Like, saying that does not change the fact that this entire conversation. Why do you even bother making comments like that? Saying it in a post does not change the entire discussion and make it true. Seriously lol. Do you think I keep comparing Bilal to Exum because Exum is French? I think you know the answer to that. This entire time, my point is that you cannot connect them on the basis of being French alone and it's lazy to do so.

If you're trying to make the argument that Frank and Bilal are similar because they are similar prospects based on basketball reasons that is one thing. I disagree, but at least that is an argument based on basketball. The point of contention is if Bilal is overrated on the basis of being French.
 
I just don’t get what is so controversial about me stating I would be a little wary of French A League prospects due to them not producing any decent let alone good NBA players in over a decade.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
A league does not make prospects.
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I get the league doesn't make the prospect but if the league had enormous amounts of NBA talent then it would be producing prospects. Its just like how Cal's system doesn't make prospects either... but a lot of NBA talent comes through that program.
 
KqWIN said:
You can't just say I'm the one tying to them being French lol. Like, saying that does not change the fact that this entire conversation. Why do you even bother making comments like that? Saying it in a post does not change the entire discussion and make it true. Seriously lol.
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You keep saying its not because they are French... like that is the argument... its more nuanced and reducing it down like that is a bad look.
KqWIN said:
Do you think I keep comparing Bilal to Exum because Exum is French? I think you know the answer to that. This entire time, my point is that you cannot connect them on the basis of being French alone and it's lazy to do so.

If you're trying to make the argument that Frank and Bilal are similar because they are similar prospects based on basketball reasons that is one thing. I disagree, but at least that is an argument based on basketball. The point of contention is if Bilal is overrated on the basis of being French.
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And there you did it again... lol. The point of contention is the French league that some of the guys have played in doesn't produce a lot of NBA talent... but sure its just about them being French and ignore the general details.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
It's not xenophobia, but directing comparing production across leagues is just being plain stupid.

It comes down to being incredibly lazy once again. This idea that two prospects who put up similar basic box score stats must be similar players.
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Yes... its incredibly stupid to compare similar prospects, with similar production, in the same league... when similar assumptions about their skill level/development were assumed... How ****ing dumb.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I get the league doesn't make the prospect but if the league had enormous amounts of NBA talent then it would be producing prospects. Its just like how Cal's system doesn't make prospects either... but a lot of NBA talent comes through that program.
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$$$ and copy cat syndrome (and the prospects have slowed down for Cal because players realized it isnt all that great).

If you know a place has a reputation of NBA players going there, you are going to want to go there. That doesnt mean that place produces NBA talent, but it's an incorrect perception that can potentially help you because people will be lazy.

Generally speaking the identified young talent of Europe is not playing in the French domestic league because the French domestic league does not pay as much or have the kind of youth developmental reputation (for Europe, not the NBA) that other leagues have. (that's why you see a lot of these guys like Luka going to these clubs that have bigger money resources to pour into their youth development)

Bilal was a late bloomer which explains why he stuck in the French league. He also had the same agent as Wemby, so that probably played a role as well. Bilal might have gone to a completely different league if it wasnt for Vic staying in France and then Elizah wouldnt have an xenophobic excuse to doubt him.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Right but the next level connection that some of us are making is putting those two things together. Low production in that league. That kind of production in college does not land you in the lotto but if you are in a pro league its assumed there is more to offer. Its not Xenophobic though lol. So drafting those guys high has a rough history... does not mean it has to repeat though.

If Bilal was doing Luka **** or Wemby **** well that's different.
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IMO you don't need the next step. Low production in any reasonable league should be viewed with skepticism. And it's the low production that's making you skeptical not the league. That's why you would have picked Wemby 1st even thought he's coming from the same league and same team.

Just evaluate the guy's play and tools and production... and from then on you can decide for yourself if there are circumstances that excuse that production or provide context that makes you think he might be an outlier. As I said above, I think there are things that make me think there's a chance he turns into an amazing player... but I don't think the chance is very high.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You keep saying its not because they are French... like that is the argument... its more nuanced and reducing it down like that is a bad look.

And there you did it again... lol. The point of contention is the French league that some of the guys have played in doesn't produce a lot of NBA talent... but sure its just about them being French and ignore the general details.
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If I say Bilal is drafted high and it's not because he's French, I am directly stating that he is not being drafted high because he is French. I can't even comprehend how you could interpret that differently. How can I say that Bilal was drafted high for reasons that are not being French? Maybe someone can assist, I don't know how to dumb it down more.

I have said over and over that comparing two players on the basketball things, like low production, makes sense. Comparing them simply on the basis of being French, does not make very much sense. I would agree that reducing a player down to being French is stupid, which is what I have been saying since the start of this discussion. Until I figure out how to communicate this I do not know where to go from here.
 
KqWIN said:
If I say Bilal is drafted high and it's not because he's French, I am directly stating that he is not being drafted high because he is French. I can't even comprehend how you could interpret that differently. How can I say that Bilal was drafted high for reasons that are not being French? Maybe someone can assist, I don't know how to dumb it down more.

I have said over and over that comparing two players on the basketball things, like low production, makes sense. Comparing them simply on the basis of being French, does not make very much sense. I would agree that reducing a player down to being French is stupid, which is what I have been saying since the start of this discussion. Until I figure out how to communicate this I do not know where to go from here.
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It has nothing to do with him being French dude… it’s the France A League he’s playing in.
 
stitches said:
IMO you don't need the next step. Low production in any reasonable league should be viewed with skepticism. And it's the low production that's making you skeptical not the league. That's why you would have picked Wemby 1st even thought he's coming from the same league and same team.

Just evaluate the guy's play and tools and production... and from then on you can decide for yourself if there are circumstances that excuse that production or provide context that makes you think he might be an outlier. As I said above, I think there are things that make me think there's a chance he turns into an amazing player... but I don't think the chance is very high.
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Right... but production like that in college will get you basically disqualified from being considered a first round pick... so the only time it would get you picked is in one of the adult overseas leagues. So I would think in that evaluation of the limited prospect you would consider the history of that and similar leagues. Whether its French or Euro league it doesn't necessarily matter... I agree. But you can really only evaluate the tools if the play/production is low... So thats a recipe for these kinds of mistakes/busts and I don't think its a coincidence that its a route with little to no success. Its okay to connect the ingredients there. Its a bet I'd still take with Bilal in the teens or 20s but at 7?
 
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