What's new
By:

Texas school shooting

After the Croatian war ended in 1995, a perfect storm of conditions led to a huge rise in violent bank robberies. You had a country with a very low rate of gun ownership that just went through a war. A lot of people simply never returned their weapons after the war. Obviously, those people knew how to use them, too, having had 4 years of practice. Those same people also sometimes had PTSD. The country was poor, but undergoing that awkward transition from command to market economy, with everything suddenly being available, but there being little money for most people to buy it. There was also a generation of young me in their early 20s who were drafted straight out of high school with little education and even fewer skills to live in a civilian society. Remember that this being a massive war of independence, it wasn't like decommissioned soldiers were some small segment of the society. Most young men saw military service in some shape or form.

So naturally, some of these young men started robbing banks. And not with a not they passed to a teller while having a bulge under their coat that my or may not be a handgun. These guys would show up with assault rifles, fire a few warning rounds in the air and be out of there before cops have a chance to show up. So the banks resorted to hiring private security. I remember them well. Massively built guys in their 20s with a red beret and military-looking fatigues standing in the vestibule, with a 9mm in a holster. Scary looking guys, but pretty soon, the would-be robbers figured out that obviously, private security can't shoot first. They're there to stop shooters. So, of course, the decommissioned soldiers robbing banks started shooting these poor private security guys. Between 2003 and 2009, almost a dozen were killed. In two of these cases, banks had two security guards. In both cases, they were both killed. Fully-automatics, no warning, just walked in, emptied a few clips into these guys. In one case, a bank had no security guard, but 5 cops accidentally walked into the bank during the robbery. The single robber killed one and wounded the other 4 before escaping. How? Simple. The cops didn't walk in with their guns drawn because they weren't there because of the robbery. They had no idea, so the shooter shot first. By the time they responded, he had escaped, but not before shooting every one of them. AK-47. Never jams, never fails, as former soldiers liked to say when I was a kid.

You can have an armed guard at the school. You can have two. These shootings tend to be planned. The shooters will simply plan for killing the guards first. It's not that hard, since they can't fire first. Or you don't have to kill them. Mass shooters these days generally don't plan to survive. If the police officer is in their office, just go to a hallway on the other end of the school and shoot until they show up.
 
One thing I wondered last night, and I’ll get laughed off the board for this, and I’m not saying there is a correlation, but I wonder, has to do with the sharp decline of manufacturing jobs in this country over the last 20 or so years. I’m sure it began prior to that but it’s continued for years now.

I don’t have time to explain my thought process right now but in short, it has to do with disillusionment.
 
Last edited:
bigb said:
Fair warning: I’m going to make this post and then probably never open this thread again. If I do, the likelihood of me responding is slim to none. It’s a pointless exercise in futility based on who I’ve seen in here.
For those arguing the 2nd Amendment is outdated and to be revoked/drastically changed: it was made the same time as the 1st Amendment. Is it also outdated? Should it be revoked/drastically changed?
Can we not recognize that a 17 year old in possession of a firearm is illegal?Specifically, how do YOU propose we “keep guns out of the hands of criminals”?
Do you honestly believe “strict gun laws” are the answer? Please cite statistics to back up your claim. From here in America, since that’s where we are talking about.

For the record, I do favor gun reform. It is too easy to obtain a firearm in this country. IMO, no private sales should be allowed. Everything should have to go through a licensed dealer. I would be in favor of waiting periods, stronger and universal background checks. It probably wouldn’t be hard to convince me that a magazine size limit is a good idea. There is no reason an ordinary citizen needs a fully automatic weapon. Bump stocks should have been outlawed from the start.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure a kid possessing a firearm is outright illegal, and don't think it should be outright. Parents need to be more responsible about access when their children act like little psychos.

I grew up chopping firewood at 5 and starting the morning fire at 6 a.m. with my 7 year old brother. We mowed the lawn at 7 y.o. I got my first gun at 12. That was determined and justified for myself and all my competent siblings by our parents. But do you think I'll do the same with my kids who don't have anywhere near the same competent demeanor? Hell no.

The access issue looks to me like bad parents not noticing when there kids are psychos and doing something about it or being too exhausted from dealing with a problem child to prevent these trajedies.
 
The hole we've dug with firearms is simply too deep at this point. You can ban all firearms entirely from sale but there's millions of them out there. If someone wants one, they can get one. There's more guns than people in America.

I see firearms sold all the time on local want ads here. No regulation, no checks, just exchanged for cold hard bills.

The violence isn't going to stop in our lifetimes. Yes, we should pass meaningful reform and only allow licensed dealers with comprehensive background checks, ban on assault rifles to the general public, and the NRA and special interests outside of politicians pockets. Those are common sense things; they alone won't stop the flood when the dam broke long ago.

This is America.
 
I think it less than coincidence that virtually every state in the top 20 with the highest gun deaths per capita is a red state.

I think that speaks volumes about guns and the mindset of those who own them.
 
Zombie said:
Actually that was advice. If you want to have a dialogue with people, beginning posts with obvious nonsense like that is a great way to undermine that.

Anyway I went back to read what you wrote and realized my instincts were right. You completely mischaracterized what I wrote, and addressed points I didn't bring up. I didn't say a damn thing about people who are pro gun, and didn't insinuate anything about them being a plague.

You don't seem like someone who is acting in good faith so I will refrain from replying to you in the future, and would ask the same of you in return.
Click to expand...

If you want to have a dialogue with people then don't open with a statement that is utter ******** that has been made up by a couple newspaper articles and stating it as fact.

By your logic, having police patrol the highways and neighborhoods increases violence. Do you see why someone with an IQ above 1 would write you off as a dumbass?

There aren't any studies proving what you beli eve to be fact. I've looked foir them.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
One thing I wondered last night, and I’ll get laughed off the board for this, and I’m not saying there is a correlation, but I wonder, has to do with the sharp decline of manufacturing jobs in this country over the last 20 or so years. I’m sure it began prior to that but it’s continued for years now.

I don’t have time to explain my thought process right now but I’m short, it has to do with disillusionment.
Click to expand...

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...-to-disrupted-sleep-routines-finds-study.aspx

I, personally, think that cell phones are ****ing kids up with their mental health. Their schedules get messed up, their sleep cycles and gawd knows what they are reading online to influence or entertain their thoughts.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
I think it less than coincidence that virtually every state in the top 20 with the highest gun deaths per capita is a red state.

I think that speaks volumes about guns and the mindset of those who own them.
Click to expand...

It's a way of life out west and other areas, but yes it is a small town, leave us alone and let us live our own damn life's mindset. People from high population density areas can't relate to red states because density necessitates more regulation and you are much more accustomed to compromising and shaking hands. Out west, our compromise has a tendency of "**** off, we gon do it are way"

I work with people from your neck of the woods who thought owning a gun was insane until they moved here in their late 30's and now own several.

The cultural mindset is simply different, and I think cultural difference and diffusion as well is important to people.
 
idestroyedthetoilet said:
It's a way of life out west and other areas, but yes it is a small town, leave us alone and let us live our own damn life's mindset. People from high population density areas can't relate to red states because density necessitates more regulation and you are much more accustomed to compromising and shaking hands. Out west, our compromise has a tendency of "**** off, we gon do it are way"

I work with people from your neck of the woods who thought owning a gun was insane until they moved here in their late 30's and now own several.

The cultural mindset is simply different, and I think cultural difference and diffusion as well is important to people.
Click to expand...

Cultures evolve.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
I think it less than coincidence that virtually every state in the top 20 with the highest gun deaths per capita is a red state.

I think that speaks volumes about guns and the mindset of those who own them.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. I think states with lax gun laws (red states) significantly contributes to higher gun violence rates. Especially if you include suicide in those gun violence rates. It's no small wonder that if guns are readily available they will more likely be used rather than in blue states where guns are much more difficult to get.

Many gun nuts like to bring up Chicago's high gun violence rate. But the key is reading into those statistics. I've read several reports now that most of the guns used in Chicago (66 percent) come from out of state. So in a way, strict gun laws in Illinois are working. But we need the collaboration of other states to really enforce them. That's why I support stronger NATIONAL gun laws. Much like the LGBT rights, gun laws don't work work each state gets "A la carte" treatment.

Wes Mantooth said:
One thing I wondered last night, and I’ll get laughed off the board for this, and I’m not saying there is a correlation, but I wonder, has to do with the sharp decline of manufacturing jobs in this country over the last 20 or so years. I’m sure it began prior to that but it’s continued for years now.

I don’t have time to explain my thought process right now but I’m short, it has to do with disillusionment.
Click to expand...

I've thought about this too and I have no doubt that economic displacement is a factor. But why hasn't Europe seen surges in gun violence? Haven't they seen steep declines in manufacturing jobs? Why are shootings occurring in places without a history of manufacturing decline (Vegas, Houston, Parkland, Aurora, New Town)? If economic displacement was significant, I'd think we'd see surges of school, church, and theater shootings skyrocketing in places like Michigan, Ohio, and West Virginia.

So either the Europeans have done something right to retrain their workers displaced by manufacturing decline or economic displacement isn't a significant factor for gun violence rates.

In my opinion, the skyrocketing occurrences of mass shootings is more closely correlated to the expiration of the "Assault Weapons Ban" which expired in 2004. Before 2004, the weapon most commonly used in these mass shootings, the AR-15, was banned. High capacity magazines were banned as well. Today, people combine the AR-15 with high capacity magazines and bump stocks and wreck havoc.
 
bigb said:
Fair warning: I’m going to make this post and then probably never open this thread again. If I do, the likelihood of me responding is slim to none. It’s a pointless exercise in futility based on who I’ve seen in here.
For those arguing the 2nd Amendment is outdated and to be revoked/drastically changed: it was made the same time as the 1st Amendment. Is it also outdated? Should it be revoked/drastically changed?
Can we not recognize that a 17 year old in possession of a firearm is illegal?Specifically, how do YOU propose we “keep guns out of the hands of criminals”?
Do you honestly believe “strict gun laws” are the answer? Please cite statistics to back up your claim. From here in America, since that’s where we are talking about.

For the record, I do favor gun reform. It is too easy to obtain a firearm in this country. IMO, no private sales should be allowed. Everything should have to go through a licensed dealer. I would be in favor of waiting periods, stronger and universal background checks. It probably wouldn’t be hard to convince me that a magazine size limit is a good idea. There is no reason an ordinary citizen needs a fully automatic weapon. Bump stocks should have been outlawed from the start.
Click to expand...

I'll give you a statistic. In the UK, with a population of 55 million, there are 50-60 deaths by gun violence annually. In the U.S. with a population of 300 plus million, there are about 10,000. The UK has gun control laws in place. At least, even though, you still believe the second amendment is viable, which I disagree with because the first amendment will always have a place in a free, democratic society, you see the need for firearms reform. I myself like most others who believe in control think people should be able to possess guns, it's just that they need to be regulated strictly to ensure the wrong people don't get them. It's really an attitude shift that is needed that like Jazzgal said, owning a gun is not a right but a privilege, like owning a car for which there are strict regulations. For guns, such regulations are even more important.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
Cultures evolve.
Click to expand...

It always has, and should. I'm pointing out the practicality of a core reason behind our mindsets against those who think westerners, mid-westerners, and plenty of th South are just dumb rednecks because you mentioned red states. It's probably the main reason US politics are (is?) so divisive. People don't care to try understanding the other and can't relate.
 
Zombie said:
I’m sure you’re trying to make a really clever point of some kind here, but it’s worth considering that school shootings are so commonplace in this country that it’s gotten to the point where only the ones with a high body count break through into public consciousness.
Click to expand...
It's gotten to the point where only stories that fit the narrative break through the media, and therefore enter into the public consciousness. My belief is that our gun control laws need serious work, but I also believe we need an honest dialogue. The story of a hero who prevented a massacre ought to get some run. Most people don't even know about the Chicago situation.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-dixon-school-shooting-20180516-story.html
 
I read recently about a high school in the Salt Lake Valley. It just had its 6th student suicide for the school year. This is an astounding number since you could literally combine the rest of the districts in the entire valley and not reach that number. So for one school to have so many suicides is incredible.

One of my friends attended one of the several community meetings they've had over the past few weeks to raise awareness about suicide. The first thing that Michael Staley, Utah's state medical examiner instructed parents to do was to, "secure your guns." He explained that it wasn't a gun rights issue but just a common sense measure that they're finding that parents woefully neglect. If students are contemplating suicide, having easy access to a gun will be an easy temptation.

Again, the issue is guns.

I think as a nation, we need to not only reinstate the assault weapons ban of 1994, and create a national gun registry (and subsequent universal background checks), but enact stricter laws concerning the securing of guns. Just this past week a West High School student brought his daddy's gun to school. Standard practice for this offense is a 10-day suspension plus a district hearing (which depending on the case, could result in a student's expulsion from school). Parents merely face a class B misdemeanor (fine of up to $1000 or six months in jail although jail time is rarely given). Parents who neglect to lock up their guns should be faced with stiffer penalties and prison time. I'd even favor higher taxes to pay for a police force to routinely inspect people's guns to make sure they're properly secured (they do this in Japan).

As a nation we have become far too lax with lethal weapons. And it shows. The US has 5x the population of the UK yet has 423x as many gun murders. I get that culture plays a factor into things. But gun laws (or the lack thereof) matter.
 
Last edited:
idestroyedthetoilet said:
It always has, and should. I'm pointing out the practicality of a core reason behind our mindsets against those who think westerners, mid-westerners, and plenty of th South are just dumb rednecks because you mentioned red states. It's probably the main reason US politics are (is?) so divisive. People don't care to try understanding the other and can't relate.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.

I do understand. I really do. And I respect that fact and even love many things about it.

I think the culture simply needs to adapt in an intelligent manner, embracing their core values while integrating changes (ie, basic gun reform laws like those just mentioned by dude a few posts up) that seem fundamental in moving toward a better society.
 
Likewise, the North would do itself some good to take a page from the South (not sure about Midwest or Utahrn region) and become less corporate go go go and more family oriented.
 
Last edited:
idestroyedthetoilet said:
It always has, and should. I'm pointing out the practicality of a core reason behind our mindsets against those who think westerners, mid-westerners, and plenty of th South are just dumb rednecks because you mentioned red states. It's probably the main reason US politics are (is?) so divisive. People don't care to try understanding the other and can't relate.
Click to expand...

It's a fact. I get that people living in red states generally prefer alt facts. They're suspicious of experts, calling them coastal elitists. But instead of reacting defensively and blaming "the other side" of "failing to understand red states" as if gun violence rates are qualitative data like disagreeing on the best brand of chocolate, read the verifiable data. Red states generally have liberal gun laws allowing greater and easier access to guns. There absolutely is a strong relationship between lax gun laws and greater and easier access to them and gun violence rates. This is quantifiable. It's been proved. It's a fact that cannot be disputed.

This is one of the main reasons why I hate Trump. He didn't invent this. But he certainly has had the largest role in disqualifying verifiable facts to a large part of the population. People think whatever nonsense he tweets is a fact while the facts reported by empirical data and years of research by experts is nonsense. It's driving me and other researchers just bat **** crazy.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nce-see-where-your-state-stacks-up/359395002/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top