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The abominable side of the USA

dodo said:
I disagree with this. People are resisting arrest all over the country every day and they are not being killed but taken in custody. Ultimately we don't know what happened there. From what I read about the Grand Jury decision, they weighted the officer's testimony against (sometimes conflicting) testimonies of witnesses. It is not a clear cut case. Who knows if he reached for the gun or not. He was shot a significant distance from the officer. Regardless what his character was, his killing is sheer incompetence (best case).

P.S. And BTW as we saw in the Staten Island case, Gran Juries are not the word of God. Who knows of what kind of racist assholes were they made of.
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Are people typically resisting arrest and in a tug of war for an officer's sidearm all the time? Since you don't believe the officer's account of that night, why not just read over the forensic evidence? Is that not telling enough for you?
 
dodo said:
I am making the point that denying justice in those cases are creating conditions for future racial unrest. Blacks do not trust the system to deliver justice. I can see future Ferguson's being set up now....
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I understood what you meant. You could though just as easily apply that saying to a dude that punches a cop or steals cigarettes.

It's vague rhetoric. Unfortunately(as can be seen in the op) this discussion has become almost entirely rhetorical at least here in the states.

It gets old. I find it harder and harder to find people that can have a rational discussion about race(or much else). At a certain point you just stop taking them seriously. That is why I called you out. I find you to be one of those rational people. I appreciate your posts and would hate to see them(your posts)reduced to rhetorical talking points.
 
trigg3r said:
Michael Brown's actions led to his own untimely death. The forensic evidence supported the police officer's account. The problem is that people buy into these false narratives letting their emotion cloud their ability to rationally consider the facts. Had Michael Brown grabbed Officer Wilson's gun and shot and killed him with it this would never have been a nationally covered news story. He would have just been another statistic in terms of an officer killed in the line of duty.

As for Garner, I haven't read up on the case enough to give a good opinion on it. From what I have read the officer in question using the chokehold should have been indicted IMO. But again, not enough to go on as of yet for me there.
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I'm white, christian, not in power, did not defend Zimmerman, do think the evidence supported Wilson's version of the story and believe Pantaleo SHOULD have been indicted by the grand jury. As for the indictment of the videotaper, it was NOT related to the case. It was on a weapons charge in a separate incident. Oh yes, and has been pointed out, christian conservatives have not been in control of the federal government. Well, that has changed as of the last election with the Republicans now taking over the House, but Obama still has veto power.
 
PKM said:
Gotcha, thanks.

FWIW, I am always drawn to your posts. I think you are way valuable in your thought process and intellect. I may not always agree, but your posts are quality.
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Thanks. Appreciate it. Same can be said about you and many other posters here. That's what draws me back here. FWIW, I have followed this board since the late 90ies and there have always been good contributors whose opinions are worth reading (agree or not)
 
Stifle Tower said:
I'm white, christian, not in power, did not defend Zimmerman, do think the evidence supported Wilson's version of the story and believe Pantaleo SHOULD have been indicted by the grand jury. As for the indictment of the videotaper, it was NOT related to the case. It was on a weapons charge in a separate incident. Oh yes, and has been pointed out, christian conservatives have not been in control of the federal government. Well, that has changed as of the last election with the Republicans now taking over the House, but Obama still has veto power.
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Conviction. Look it up.

You, like many (most) others, seem to feel it's wrong to stand strong on one's beliefs. Stand strong bro. State it loud and proud. Whatever it may be. Stand/fall thingie.
 
dodo said:
I disagree with this. People are resisting arrest all over the country every day and they are not being killed but taken in custody. Ultimately we don't know what happened there. From what I read about the Grand Jury decision, they weighted the officer's testimony against (sometimes conflicting) testimonies of witnesses. It is not a clear cut case. Who knows if he reached for the gun or not. He was shot a significant distance from the officer. Regardless what his character was, his killing is sheer incompetence (best case).

P.S. And BTW as we saw in the Staten Island case, Gran Juries are not the word of God. Who knows of what kind of racist assholes were they made of.
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And in this country, you can't convict if there is reasonable doubt. However, in the Garner we know that chokeholds have been banned by the NYPD since 1993. So the only other question should be, "was the officer's life in imminent danger at any time." If the answer is no, he committed a crime and should have been indicted.
 
PKM said:
Conviction. Look it up.

You, like many (most) others, seem to feel it's wrong to stand strong on one's beliefs. Stand strong bro. State it loud and proud. Whatever it may be. Stand/fall thingie.
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What do you mean? I do stand strong on my belief in justice, regardless of skin color or political party (or whether you are a Ute, Cougar or Wildcat).
 
Stifle Tower said:
I'm white, christian, not in power, did not defend Zimmerman, do think the evidence supported Wilson's version of the story and believe Pantaleo SHOULD have been indicted by the grand jury. As for the indictment of the videotaper, it was NOT related to the case. It was on a weapons charge in a separate incident. Oh yes, and has been pointed out, christian conservatives have not been in control of the federal government. Well, that has changed as of the last election with the Republicans now taking over the House, but Obama still has veto power.
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Stifle Tower said:
What do you mean? I do stand strong on my belief in justice, regardless of skin color or political party (or whether you are a Ute, Cougar or Wildcat).
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was just saying to stand strong in beliefs and not allow apathy to creep in when defeat seems to be knocking..
 
PKM said:
was just saying to stand strong in beliefs and not allow apathy to creep in when defeat seems to be knocking..
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Defeat is knocking? Sorry, I'm not a supporter of the direction this country has headed in the Obama era. Certainly wasn't apathy that gave a convincing win to Republicans in the midterms. Oh, I guess you could say it was apathy by Democrats. They have the Republicans outnumbered considerably across the country. Most just stayed home instead of voting, I suppose.

And that's not to say I'm a blind supporter of either party. I never just mark the slate along party lines.
 
trigg3r said:
Michael Brown's actions led to his own untimely death. The forensic evidence supported the police officer's account.
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The forensic evidence showed three entrance wounds in the inside of Brown's forearm, which means his palms were facing Brown in some manner. Please tell me how you reconcile that with Brown 1) reaching into his waistband for no reason at all while he was running toward Wilson.

trigg3r said:
The problem is that people buy into these false narratives letting their emotion cloud their ability to rationally consider the facts.
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Check the mirror.

trigg3r said:
Had Michael Brown grabbed Officer Wilson's gun and shot and killed him with it this would never have been a nationally covered news story. He would have just been another statistic in terms of an officer killed in the line of duty.
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Had the protests not turned to violence, Brown would have been just another black man shot down for no justifiable reason, and there would have been no more national coverage than in your scenario.
 
heyhey said:
I understood what you meant. You could though just as easily apply that saying to a dude that punches a cop or steals cigarettes.

It's vague rhetoric. Unfortunately(as can be seen in the op) this discussion has become almost entirely rhetorical at least here in the states.

It gets old. I find it harder and harder to find people that can have a rational discussion about race(or much else). At a certain point you just stop taking them seriously. That is why I called you out. I find you to be one of those rational people. I appreciate your posts and would hate to see them(your posts)reduced to rhetorical talking points.
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Why would people be willing to have a unemotional discussion about a profoundly emotional topic? For your benefit?
 
Stifle Tower said:
I'm white, christian, not in power, did not defend Zimmerman, do think the evidence supported Wilson's version of the story and believe Pantaleo SHOULD have been indicted by the grand jury. As for the indictment of the videotaper, it was NOT related to the case. It was on a weapons charge in a separate incident. Oh yes, and has been pointed out, christian conservatives have not been in control of the federal government. Well, that has changed as of the last election with the Republicans now taking over the House, but Obama still has veto power.
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Republicans have held the House since 2010. It's the Senate they just took over.
 
Stifle Tower said:
And in this country, you can't convict if there is reasonable doubt. However, in the Garner we know that chokeholds have been banned by the NYPD since 1993. So the only other question should be, "was the officer's life in imminent danger at any time." If the answer is no, he committed a crime and should have been indicted.
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To get an indictment, you only need probable cause. You don't even need a preponderance of the evidence. Prosecutors get them every day on flimsier evidence when the suspects are not police officers.
 
As soon as I read 'I'm all for fighting for a free capitalist society, but the white christians grabbed power and have yet to relinquish it thus making the USA a true 'land of the free'.' I stopped reading.

You're full of it once you add the color connotation to your argument, I'm so sick of this crap. Go dig yourself a hole.
 
Jamezz said:
As soon as I read 'I'm all for fighting for a free capitalist society, but the white christians grabbed power and have yet to relinquish it thus making the USA a true 'land of the free'.' I stopped reading.

You're full of it once you add the color connotation to your argument, I'm so sick of this crap. Go dig yourself a hole.
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The only error with the part you quoted was "grabbed", when ""kept" was a better description.
 
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