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The Honesty of Transgender Identity

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MVP said:
no, it is bending your *** towards political correctness. Peterson rightfully refused to do so.
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Why do you feel so strongly about this? What does it matter if someone wants to be treated like a man or a woman? Why have you appointed yourself gender enforcer?
 
Darkwing Duck said:
I'll take my four years of studying a discipline that's pretty heavily involved in gender and its definition over some layman trying to describe gender in a few words.
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And yet those years of study have hardly afforded you the ability to make an honest argument. You have no idea if I'm a "layman" and I've made no attempt to describe anything. I merely pointed out that one person, no matter how many years of study, cannot redefine a term that's been around for hundreds of years. You know, people who maintain dictionaries are educated, too, and words have multiple (yay, multiple!) meanings.

...on second thought, wtf am I doing here? Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.
 
fairweather said:
And yet those years of study have hardly afforded you the ability to make an honest argument. You have no idea if I'm a "layman" and I've made no attempt to describe anything. I merely pointed out that one person, no matter how many years of study, cannot redefine a term that's been around for hundreds of years. You know, people who maintain dictionaries are educated, too, and words have multiple (yay, multiple!) meanings.

...on second thought, wtf am I doing here? Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.
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Definitions expand and change with knowledge. Just because we defined a cultural construct a certain way hundreds of years ago doesn't mean it's unchangeable.
 
fairweather said:
And yet those years of study have hardly afforded you the ability to make an honest argument. You have no idea if I'm a "layman" and I've made no attempt to describe anything. I merely pointed out that one person, no matter how many years of study, cannot redefine a term that's been around for hundreds of years. You know, people who maintain dictionaries are educated, too, and words have multiple (yay, multiple!) meanings.

...on second thought, wtf am I doing here? Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.
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Also, stop threatening to leave the conversation. We don't care.
 
One Brow said:
People call for all kinds of people to be fired, across the political spectrum. Some even want to jail political opponents. Doesn't change that Peterson was never threatened with termination.



Which people, which proposed bills? This sounds like fear-mongering.
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1.) I never said he was threatened with termination. I said, "However, I don't believe Peterson should be fired." It's like you like to argue with things people don't say. It's weird, really.

2.) The New York City Commission on Human Rights released new guidelines in December 2015 regarding discrimination on the basis of gender identity or expression. "a. Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses."

"Discrimination against a transgender individual could result in fines of up to $250,000, but these fines won’t be handed out for accidentally misusing pronouns. According to the new guidelines, the commission can impose civil penalties of up to $125,000 for violations of the law and (in extreme circumstances) of up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of “willful, wanton, or malicious” conduct."

Yeah, it's just fear mongering, guy.
 
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One Brow said:
You brought up your own behavior, and I'm just curious where you draw the line you said you employ. You said that, even if you could not tell that another person was transsexual, they needed to disclose it to you before you started dating. Do you make it a point to disclose you are cissexual to every person you date?
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I draw the line at if the person was born female. Do I have to give you more reasons or justify why that is?
To answer your second question - if it's ever in question, then sure I would.
 
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fairweather said:
And yet those years of study have hardly afforded you the ability to make an honest argument. You have no idea if I'm a "layman" and I've made no attempt to describe anything. I merely pointed out that one person, no matter how many years of study, cannot redefine a term that's been around for hundreds of years. You know, people who maintain dictionaries are educated, too, and words have multiple (yay, multiple!) meanings.

...on second thought, wtf am I doing here? Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.
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When has male and female ever been considered "gender" instead of "sex?"

Only recently, actually. Otherwise, the world over and across time wouldn't have the English analogous terms "man" and "woman" as those are gender terms and not synonymous to "adult human male/female." Across even societies and populations that speak the same language, what it is to be a "man" or "woman" has different definitions. Scientifically, "male and female" have NEVER been used to denote gender.
 
Siro said:
What does it matter if someone wants to be treated like a man or a woman?
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In no way I am appointing myself as enforcer. I am just saying that Peterson refused to use enforced pronouns on him and I think he is right. To me it really does not matter if somebody wants to be treated like women or man. But lets not go overboard with "zhe" "shim" and other nonsenses. Somebody wants to use those word on themselves to describe them to others - fine, use it. Just don't expect me to use them.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
When has male and female ever been considered "gender" instead of "sex?"
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Can you guys explain to me why you guys even have "gender" and "sex" words in English? Aren't they the same meaning at the end of the day? In my native language language we do not have two words for sex and gender - it is one word, maybe that's why I am getting confused here.
 
MVP said:
In no way I am appointing myself as enforcer. I am just saying that Peterson refused to use enforced pronouns on him and I think he is right. To me it really does not matter if somebody wants to be treated like women or man. But lets not go overboard with "zhe" "shim" and other nonsenses. Somebody wants to use those word on themselves to describe them to others - fine, use it. Just don't expect me to use them.
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That zhe and shim thing is a strawman. We're talking about insisting on referring to someone by their birth sex despite them wanting to live as, and be treated as, the other sex. That's just being an ******* for no reason.
 
MVP said:
In no way I am appointing myself as enforcer. I am just saying that Peterson refused to use enforced pronouns on him and I think he is right. To me it really does not matter if somebody wants to be treated like women or man. But lets not go overboard with "zhe" "shim" and other nonsenses. Somebody wants to use those word on themselves to describe them to others - fine, use it. Just don't expect me to use them.
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If you met Snoop Dogg would you refuse to use his made up name?
 
Siro said:
That zhe and shim thing is a strawman. We're talking about insisting on referring to someone by their birth sex despite them wanting to live as, and be treated as, the other sex. That's just being an ******* for no reason.
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oh, I never insisted I want to refer to someone by their birth sex. Caitlyn Jenner former olympic medalist ? She is a she now.
 
Ok, so this what I found.

In general terms, "sex" refers to the biological differences between males and females, such as the genitalia and genetic differences. "Gender" is more difficult to define, but it can refer to the role of a male or female in society, known as a gender role, or an individual's concept of themselves, or gender identity.

This is getting way to complicated. Just to be clear I was mostly talking about sex.
It is a slippery slope. We had a case here in Canada where dude found a loophole to reduce his car insurance by declaring that he is a she. As a female driver he was considered lesser risk and got his yearly insurance reduced by few hundred bucks. Yet even he claims that by all definitions he is a male and identifies as male and claimed to be a female just for monetary gain. Tell me how is this not messed up?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416
 
MVP said:
Can you guys explain to me why you guys even have "gender" and "sex" words in English? Aren't they the same meaning at the end of the day? In my native language language we do not have two words for sex and gender - it is one word, maybe that's why I am getting confused here.
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Many languages use different words to express biological and social concepts.

In German they are intertwined generally the other way around. The "technical" term for "male" is "maennlich", which derives from the word "Mann", meaning man. The term for female is "weiblich", deriving from the word "Weib" meaning woman (although archaic now). And more often than not they will use the construct "a man" (ein Mann) or "a woman" (eine Frau) when using these terms. They also use the pronoun as a noun, such as "ein Er" for male ("a He") or "eine Sie" for female ("a She").
 
MVP said:
Ok, so this what I found.

In general terms, "sex" refers to the biological differences between males and females, such as the genitalia and genetic differences. "Gender" is more difficult to define, but it can refer to the role of a male or female in society, known as a gender role, or an individual's concept of themselves, or gender identity.

This is getting way to complicated. Just to be clear I was mostly talking about sex.
It is a slippery slope. We had a case here in Canada where dude found a loophole to reduce his car insurance by declaring that he is a she. As a female driver he was considered lesser risk and got his yearly insurance reduced by few hundred bucks. Yet even he claims that by all definitions he is a male and identifies as male and claimed to be a female just for monetary gain. Tell me how is this not messed up?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416
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It's complicated because that's what this thread was about, males that identify with being women, and females that identify with being men. Basically, the feeling that the individual is better suited, to describe it kind of crudely, of the gender role associated with the opposite sex, specifically in a society where there are only traditionally two genders. In other societies were other genders exist, it's less complicated.
 
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