Zombie
Well-Known Member
Before you get too carried away, I've been bagging on white people since the Bush years. I'm about the furthest thing from trendy or hip you'll find.
The Honesty of Transgender Identity
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Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
My step grand dad has been bagging on people, because of their melanin, since the 20's. Doesn't make it right.
Dude, I don't think you're terrible at all. I think you are a good dude. Call an ace an ace. There are things no one should say, regardless (especially if we're playing by the rules of 2018.)
mongoose01
Well-Known Member
One of the main problems is we really can’t even have this conversation. “How dare you” insinuate that he doesn’t actually identify as a transgender person. You realize that gender is fluid and individuals can identify as either Sex or no Sex on a whim? Throughout the day individuals can change their identity multiple times. “How dare I” make judgements on their motives in a “typical case”. What does “typical case” even mean?
In many cases it seems to me that we are catering to individuals with mental health issues. Many, many, mental health issues are developed, they don’t just happen. Some people can be more susceptible to them, but they still must be developed. Transgender individuals also seem to share similarities with some mental health issues- Higher rate of suicide, history of trauma or abuse, drug use etc. I’m not saying this is certainly what I believe, but I think it is worth discussing and exploring. People are real quick to shut down this kind of thinking.
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Zombie
Well-Known Member
Right but there's a diffence in kind between jokes about white people and other groups. That's the price we pay for living in a society that places us at the top. In the same way that jokes targeting women are somewhat less acceptable than those targeting men. There's a power dynamic at play that matters, I think. You seem to disagree, and that's fine, you are still one of my favorite posters here even though I disagree with you a lot haha.
This thread is here to have this discussion. As long as you are presenting your views in an honest way this is a discussion I personally want to be able to have with you.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
I'm not arguing that we've had it easy. I don't argue white people have privileges.
I'm saying don't stereotype, generalize, make fun of people based off of their skin color.
There are lots of white racist, white supremacists. I take it very personal when you lump me in with them.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
Actually mental health and suicide are discussed as issues within the Trans community all the time. It's pretty widely believed (and is fairly common sense imo) that simply treating trans people better as a society is a good start in alleviating these problems.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
If you think that's what I'm doing then clearly there's some miscommunication going on, probably on my end. So for the record, I don't think you are racist.
I do think it's literally impossible to be racist against white people in the US, because racism isn't just about not liking people based solely on their skin color, it's about exerting and maintaining power within society. When a white person tells a racist joke about a stereotype or whatever they are reinforcing their own supremacy. I think it's quite a stretch to say that Jeong was attempting to do the same. It seems clear to me at least that she is using the 'language' of racist jokes to mock the jokes themselves.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
I should probably put this out there.
I grew up with parents who were divorced, and struggled with drugs and alcohol. I bounced from hom to home until about eighth grade.
My dad married a southerner, who helped him get over his alcoholism. My mom was a drug addict and my bros (gonna simplify a lot more **** here) moved in with my dad when he got married when I was in 7th grade.
My step mom was the strictest, meanest person you'll ever meet. I guarantee that. She had her nice moments, but holy **** was she a mean one.
She was a southerner and casually made racist comments to my brothers and I. I think she's a product of her upbringing in Mississippi and always butted heads with her.
I was taught, along with all of my siblings and classmates (in Utah) everyone is equal. I grew up to that too. The racist ****s were the vast minorities.
Granted, I'm from Utah, but I hope to give you a clue as to why I despise being anything you assume I am because I'm white. Gtfoh.
Lastly, I'm dyslexic af and too proud to admit it many times so it's hard to articulate myself.
I grew up with parents who were divorced, and struggled with drugs and alcohol. I bounced from hom to home until about eighth grade.
My dad married a southerner, who helped him get over his alcoholism. My mom was a drug addict and my bros (gonna simplify a lot more **** here) moved in with my dad when he got married when I was in 7th grade.
My step mom was the strictest, meanest person you'll ever meet. I guarantee that. She had her nice moments, but holy **** was she a mean one.
She was a southerner and casually made racist comments to my brothers and I. I think she's a product of her upbringing in Mississippi and always butted heads with her.
I was taught, along with all of my siblings and classmates (in Utah) everyone is equal. I grew up to that too. The racist ****s were the vast minorities.
Granted, I'm from Utah, but I hope to give you a clue as to why I despise being anything you assume I am because I'm white. Gtfoh.
Lastly, I'm dyslexic af and too proud to admit it many times so it's hard to articulate myself.
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mongoose01
Well-Known Member
Uh, it is no longer considered a mental disorder as of like 2 or 3 years ago. I agree that treating trans people better is a good start, but I also think it’s a much deeper issue than that.
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Zombie
Well-Known Member
Nor should it be. There are plenty of transgender individuals who are perfectly happy and without any mental illness whatsoever.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
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Zombie
Well-Known Member
Well, I've actually never lived in Utah lol. And I'm not at all saying that whites aren't a marginalized group in some corners of the world, that's certainly not the case in this country though. The foundation of this country was built on white supremacy, and while much as changed we still maintain vestiges of that power. As for never being confronted by white people I'm not entirely clear what you are trying to say there, so I'm just going to leave that one alone.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying we're marginalized.
I'm saying judging groups based off of skin color is wrong and counterproductive.
Edit: You missed my point. Skin color deaf, I guess.
olden_undercover
Well-Known Member
This thread is amazing. I mean that in the most positive way: It's cool this kind of conversation can happen with respect and total transparency.
My daughter's ex-boyfriend was a genetic female who identified as male. We'll call him Sam. Sam, as a young adolescent girl identifying as female, had gotten pregnant with her then-boyfriend. She had a miscarriage very early in the pregnancy and broke up with her boyfriend. About 6 months later, she began identifying as male, met my daughter, and within a few months they were dating. They were together for about 2 years, and their relationship ended in a normal way-- they just sort of outgrew each other. Within a year or so, my daughter was in a new relationship with a young man who was born male, identified as male. A couple of weeks ago, I ran into Sam's mother, who it turns out works in the same building I do. She told me Sam had recently begun identifying as female again, and has expressed how badly she wants to get pregnant and have children. We talked about how uncertain it felt as parents to watch them-- Sam and my daughter-- together. We discussed how much we had feared the difficulties we knew they would have faced, had they stayed together, and how strange it is to be in a place-- as their parents-- where we could never judge them or think badly of them for who they were, despite it all. We came to the conclusion any parent would: That we loved them before they had met, loved them when they were together, and loved them today, and all equally, and nothing could ever change that.
I have read through this thread a lot. There's so much perspective and shared wisdom here. Siro's honest questions about whether or not TG is a choice, and Bullet's comments about the unfortunate view of TG as an attempt to deceive, have made me think hard about what I have observed with my daughter and Sam. There was an unmistakable element of choice in the circumstances I've described above. It was a very specific set of circumstances, to be sure. But that gets to the heart of what I have been thinking as I read and re-read this thread...
We want so badly to identify ourselves and the world around us-- to put things in black and white, and state cause and effect in everything we see, and to categorize. Why no gray? Why no 'unknown, but that's fine for now'? At one point in this thread, there was talk of religious belief and atheism, but no talk of agnosticism. We state genetic facts, and compare them to a host of genders identified by some important people who did a lot of research, and rest assured that we are being objective; we assume that building our language and subsequent behaviors toward others around that will make things better and easier. But in that same ironic breath, all we're really doing is adding nuance to how we marginalize people stuck in a society that hasn't created a label for them that allows them to feel the most basic levels of acceptance and self-worth. I don't know the answers to a lot of questions, and that's because sometimes there isn't AN answer. Sometimes there might be an answer, but we are still too ignorant to know it, and we just need the humility to say so. That's not lazy-- it's honest, and we need to let people say, "I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to that very complex question for myself yet. Please forgive me." I don't like living in a world so desensitized to simple kindness that the public discourse has become laser-focused on shaming anybody unwilling to coalesce to ideas like preferred pronouns, going so far as to propose enforcing their use in some places by legislation. If a person asks me to call him "zim", I'll do it out of kindness and respect for that person. But if the next person tells him she is not comfortable with that, because she doesn't understand what that means, then it seems reasonable for them to have a conversation about it, and then maybe he'll come to accept that it's unfair of him to expect her-- just that one lady-- to call him "zim". Isn't that okay, too? Isn't she still okay?
Anyway, I don't have a good close to this ramble. Sorry if it was preachy; thanks for reading. I'd love to read thoughts about Sam and my daughter. I'm still not convinced I know anything about what happened there... which I'm totally fine with.
My daughter's ex-boyfriend was a genetic female who identified as male. We'll call him Sam. Sam, as a young adolescent girl identifying as female, had gotten pregnant with her then-boyfriend. She had a miscarriage very early in the pregnancy and broke up with her boyfriend. About 6 months later, she began identifying as male, met my daughter, and within a few months they were dating. They were together for about 2 years, and their relationship ended in a normal way-- they just sort of outgrew each other. Within a year or so, my daughter was in a new relationship with a young man who was born male, identified as male. A couple of weeks ago, I ran into Sam's mother, who it turns out works in the same building I do. She told me Sam had recently begun identifying as female again, and has expressed how badly she wants to get pregnant and have children. We talked about how uncertain it felt as parents to watch them-- Sam and my daughter-- together. We discussed how much we had feared the difficulties we knew they would have faced, had they stayed together, and how strange it is to be in a place-- as their parents-- where we could never judge them or think badly of them for who they were, despite it all. We came to the conclusion any parent would: That we loved them before they had met, loved them when they were together, and loved them today, and all equally, and nothing could ever change that.
I have read through this thread a lot. There's so much perspective and shared wisdom here. Siro's honest questions about whether or not TG is a choice, and Bullet's comments about the unfortunate view of TG as an attempt to deceive, have made me think hard about what I have observed with my daughter and Sam. There was an unmistakable element of choice in the circumstances I've described above. It was a very specific set of circumstances, to be sure. But that gets to the heart of what I have been thinking as I read and re-read this thread...
We want so badly to identify ourselves and the world around us-- to put things in black and white, and state cause and effect in everything we see, and to categorize. Why no gray? Why no 'unknown, but that's fine for now'? At one point in this thread, there was talk of religious belief and atheism, but no talk of agnosticism. We state genetic facts, and compare them to a host of genders identified by some important people who did a lot of research, and rest assured that we are being objective; we assume that building our language and subsequent behaviors toward others around that will make things better and easier. But in that same ironic breath, all we're really doing is adding nuance to how we marginalize people stuck in a society that hasn't created a label for them that allows them to feel the most basic levels of acceptance and self-worth. I don't know the answers to a lot of questions, and that's because sometimes there isn't AN answer. Sometimes there might be an answer, but we are still too ignorant to know it, and we just need the humility to say so. That's not lazy-- it's honest, and we need to let people say, "I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to that very complex question for myself yet. Please forgive me." I don't like living in a world so desensitized to simple kindness that the public discourse has become laser-focused on shaming anybody unwilling to coalesce to ideas like preferred pronouns, going so far as to propose enforcing their use in some places by legislation. If a person asks me to call him "zim", I'll do it out of kindness and respect for that person. But if the next person tells him she is not comfortable with that, because she doesn't understand what that means, then it seems reasonable for them to have a conversation about it, and then maybe he'll come to accept that it's unfair of him to expect her-- just that one lady-- to call him "zim". Isn't that okay, too? Isn't she still okay?
Anyway, I don't have a good close to this ramble. Sorry if it was preachy; thanks for reading. I'd love to read thoughts about Sam and my daughter. I'm still not convinced I know anything about what happened there... which I'm totally fine with.
mongoose01
Well-Known Member
Ok so let’s run around in circles. There are plenty of people who have many symptoms of OCD and are perfectly happy individuals without any other mental illness whatsoever. Because the rituals and obsessions do not cause them stress or anxiety it is not clinical OCD, yet OCD remains a mental health disorder.
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So, what are you saying here?
mongoose01
Well-Known Member
I’m saying that I think transgenderism deserves to be classified as a mental health issue. I’m not sure the parameters, but at the very least people with added stress and anxiety related to their transgender thoughts/actions, should receive counseling/treatment.
I’m not sure what “treatment” means or looks like either. I’m skeptical that we should be pumping hormones into them and telling them to cultivate those thoughts/actions. I am also skeptical about putting into law things that make questioning those actions illegal.
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mongoose01
Well-Known Member
People who spend an hour a day acting out the OCD obsessions are also considered severe. If OCD interferes with their life in a negative way it is also clinical. By being transgender they are acting on their compulsions/obsessions. Many devote significant time and effort to look and act a certain way, many act on their obsession 24/7. I think in very very few cases does this not affect their lives negatively. Like I said I don’t know the perimeters, but I see problems with the current status and the way things are heading.
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Given that you're now arguing against the consensus of thousands of mental health professionals, what are your qualifications?
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