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The Honesty of Transgender Identity

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One Brow said:
A valid, but different, question.



This is where your history of being a troll works against you. If I thought you were serious, I would be happy to go into the difference from my limited point of view, and point out some others who can cover it better. I doubt your serious enough to bother with.
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I have the same question. Should sports just become mixed gender? That's a tough one imo. It also starts to get into the space of biological vs societal gender association. It's hard to argue there isn't a biological difference that would give some transgendered individuals what could be viewed as an unfair advantage.
 
Gameface said:
I'm not educated enough in biology to provide what I would consider a clear point of delineation but I do think there should be a standard, likely related to testosterone, and that standard should not apply the same way to biologically female athletes as it does to transgender female athletes. There should also be some amount of time between the beginning of transition via hormone treatments/hormone blockers, and eligibility to compete in high level* sports.

I think this is an issue that the transgender community needs to give a little on, honestly. I can't imagine anyone transitioning in ernest just so that they can get a couple wins in a sport, but I also don't think it's an impossibility.

*I don't really know what I would define as "high level sports" but generally when you're in a position to set a world record in a sport I'd say that qualifies.

In lower level sports, youth sports, etc. I think it gets a lot more murky, but I feel there should be a much more significant tendency to let all people participate.
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It is now really sport specific. My daughters and sons all played soccer when they were young, all on mixed teams. When my oldest son started football there was a minor uproar because a couple of girls wanted to play as well an there frankly isn't any football organizations for females. I mean, not at all. My son was 12 at the time and one girl they allowed in his team was 13 and bigger than most of the boys. She did well. But there are some very strong biological gender biases in sports at every level.
 
In order to tackle the issue of transgender sports participation you need to first decide why women sports exist.

If the purpose of women's sports (i.e., the reason men aren't included) is to provide a setting in which women can associate and form friendships/bonds then I think it is appropriate for trans-women to be included. In other words, if it is like a sorority trans-women should generally be included. On the other hand, if women's sports exclude men primarily because men are physically dominant and they don't want to compete with them, then I don't believe trans-women should be included. There is NO DOUBT (none, zero, zilch, nada!) that trans-women have significant physical advantages.

It seems to me that in professional sports men are excluded because of their physical competitive advantages. For that reason, I don't believe Trans-women should be allowed to compete professionally. The more complex issue is for high school athletics, which is more about personal improvement and socializing than it is competition. I think I would allow trans to compete in high school, but track separate individual records for them (i.e., goals scored, swim/run times, etc.). I would not allow trans-women to compete against natural women in college, because I think it is more about competition.
 
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checkbookdoc said:
In order to tackle the issue of transgender sports participation you need to first decide why women sports exist.

If the purpose of women's sports (i.e., the reason men aren't included) is to provide a setting in which women can associate and form friendships/bonds then I think it is appropriate for trans-women to be included. In other words, if it is like a sorority trans-women should generally be included. On the other hand, if women's sports exclude men primarily because men are physically dominant and they don't want to compete with them, then I don't believe trans-women should be included. There is NO DOUBT (none, zero, zilch, nada!) that trans-women have significant physical advantages.

It seems to me that in professional sports men are excluded because of their physical competitive advantages. For that reason, I don't believe Trans-women should be allowed to compete professionally. The more complex issue is for high school athletics, which is more about personal improvement and socializing than it is competition. I think I would allow trans to compete in high school, but track separate individual records for them (i.e., goals scored, swim/run times, etc.). I would not allow trans-women to compete against natural women in college, because I think it is more about competition.
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Um, why not ask the other way around? Why are women excluded from men's sports? I think women's sports arose because they were systematically and institutionally excluded from "sports" in favor of men. For many years sports were the near exclusive realm of men. So I think the more accurate question is why women were excluded in the first place, because frankly that's the answer to your entire post. Women's sports arose because they were purposely excluded from "men's" sport for decades, if not centuries.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Um, why not ask the other way around? Why are women excluded from men's sports? I think women's sports arose because they were systematically and institutionally excluded from "sports" in favor of men. For many years sports were the near exclusive realm of men. So I think the more accurate question is why women were excluded in the first place, because frankly that's the answer to your entire post. Women's sports arose because they were purposely excluded from "men's" sport for decades, if not centuries.
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Good point. Historically I suppose it was probably that women were excluded... but that is often not the case for most major sports, at least in the US (NBA, NFL, MLB, PGA). So I do believe my point still stands. Also, for those sports which women are not allowed to compete with men (track, swimming, tennis, etc.), how many women would want to combine into a single league with only the best players? At the professional level it is about competition, and most women don't want to compete with men in physical activities.
 
Gameface said:
I'm not educated enough in biology to provide what I would consider a clear point of delineation but I do think there should be a standard, likely related to testosterone, and that standard should not apply the same way to biologically female athletes as it does to transgender female athletes. There should also be some amount of time between the beginning of transition via hormone treatments/hormone blockers, and eligibility to compete in high level* sports.
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I'm didn't study biology in college, but I know that the male and female body really start to show significant physical differences during puberty. These differences can't be negated by taking estrogen, even for a sustained period. There is a reason women's sports records are being broken by transgender athletes, but the same thing isn't happening in men's athletics.
We've already drawn a line in the sand for men and women to often compete separately in athletics, do we need to create a 3rd group? I'm pretty sure transgender people don't want that.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
I'm didn't study biology in college, but I know that the male and female body really start to show significant physical differences during puberty. These differences can't be negated by taking estrogen, even for a sustained period. There is a reason women's sports records are being broken by transgender athletes, but the same thing isn't happening in men's athletics.
We've already drawn a line in the sand for men and women to often compete separately in athletics, do we need to create a 3rd group? I'm pretty sure transgender people don't want that.
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The HBA? Human Basketball Association?
 
LogGrad98 said:
The HBA? Human Basketball Association?
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This makes me think of an episode of "Community", where they declare their school mascot to be the "Human Beings". The mascot could not have any identifying features associated with gender, sex, race, etc.

The Greendale Human Beings:

200
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
I'm didn't study biology in college, but I know that the male and female body really start to show significant physical differences during puberty. These differences can't be negated by taking estrogen, even for a sustained period. There is a reason women's sports records are being broken by transgender athletes, but the same thing isn't happening in men's athletics.
We've already drawn a line in the sand for men and women to often compete separately in athletics, do we need to create a 3rd group? I'm pretty sure transgender people don't want that.
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Yeah, I'm not sure what the qualifications should be, but I do think there should be some sort of method, and it would be used to exclude some transgender people from competing at the highest level of sports. I don't know if that means 50% of transgender people would be excluded (I'm assuming that we are talking pretty much exclusively about women's sports) or 80% or 99%. I don't know enough about what criteria would or should be used.

And again, I'm talking about pro-sports and sports at the level where people are eligible to set world records.

The YMCA basketball league? Deal with it.

High school field hockey? Deal with it.

Synchronized swimming? Deal with it.
 
Gameface said:
Yeah, I'm not sure what the qualifications should be, but I do think there should be some sort of method, and it would be used to exclude some transgender people from competing at the highest level of sports. I don't know if that means 50% of transgender people would be excluded (I'm assuming that we are talking pretty much exclusively about women's sports) or 80% or 99%. I don't know enough about what criteria would or should be used.

And again, I'm talking about pro-sports and sports at the level where people are eligible to set world records.

The YMCA basketball league? Deal with it.

High school field hockey? Deal with it.

Synchronized swimming? Deal with it.
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Looking forward to the day when the trans community disappoints you and you quit them too. . .
 
framer said:
Deal with it.
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I am.

Since I can't recall you posting anything of substance and you seem to be simply trying to antagonize me I'll just go ahead and put your dumb *** on ignore.

Have a nice life dick face.
 
Gameface said:
I am.

Since I can't recall you posting anything of substance and you seem to be simply trying to antagonize me I'll just go ahead and put your dumb *** on ignore.

Have a nice life dick face.
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I mean for someone telling all high school women athletes to "deal with" biological men dominating the sports that they have worked hard at and love, you seem awful thin-damned skinned. Don't you think that some of those girls might have a valid point?
 
I'd like to make clear, my comments about transgender people in sports are my basic first impressions and a starting point for me that I welcome discussion about. I don't know a lot about the issue from any angle, other than having an adult transgender daughter. I'm not an expert. It's an issue I'm aware of, but not particularly knowledgeable about. That's why I responded to Alaskan Assassin the way I did, making clear I did not have a "canned response" because my opinion is very much still in development on this issue.

If anyone feels framer makes any comments worth consideration please let me know. I have that poster on ignore and will not see their posts or make direct responses to them.
 
So when I say that the limitations should be focused on "high level" sporting events I hope that smart people will make the connection to the chilling effect that will have on transgender people in sports at all levels.

While a transgender person could participate fully in high school sports, those people will not garner much attention even if they are winning and winning and winning. That would be because they would likely not get much attention to be recruited into college sports, because they also would not even be eligible for professional sports.

So this would absolutely eliminate the motivation to be "fake transgender" so that you could dominate high school sports in the hopes of being recruited for college sports where you would also dominate the females by being a "fake transgender" and thus be recruited for professional women's sports.

I think framer was a little too stupid to understand the consequences of what I proposed.

But it gets at the very heart of this thread. "The Honesty of Transgender Identity."

framer came at this as though males would pretend to be transgender females so that they could dominate female sports.

framer obviously does not believe in the honesty of transgender identity and thinks it is all some kind of trick that he or she is just too ****ing smart to fall for.

That is exactly what I started this thread to address.
 
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Gameface said:
I'm not educated enough in biology to provide what I would consider a clear point of delineation but I do think there should be a standard, likely related to testosterone, and that standard should not apply the same way to biologically female athletes as it does to transgender female athletes. There should also be some amount of time between the beginning of transition via hormone treatments/hormone blockers, and eligibility to compete in high level* sports.

I think this is an issue that the transgender community needs to give a little on, honestly. I can't imagine anyone transitioning in ernest just so that they can get a couple wins in a sport, but I also don't think it's an impossibility.

*I don't really know what I would define as "high level sports" but generally when you're in a position to set a world record in a sport I'd say that qualifies.

In lower level sports, youth sports, etc. I think it gets a lot more murky, but I feel there should be a much more significant tendency to let all people participate.
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One Brow said:
A valid, but different, question.



This is where your history of being a troll works against you. If I thought you were serious, I would be happy to go into the difference from my limited point of view, and point out some others who can cover it better. I doubt your serious enough to bother with.
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I think what this all has to come down to is consent. I personally think it would be a little fun to watch certain sports where males and females compete against each other if they wanted to. But for your average sports, transgenders should probably have to create their own league where people who join the league consent to the situation. We are pretty much talking about males going down to compete with the females. If a female wants to transition to a male and try to compete with biological males then they should be allowed. It would be interesting to see if they could actually do it. Id have no problem at any time a biological female, or female to male transgender wants to compete with the biological males. If you can do it, then great. This is just about trying to protect biological females from being forced to compete against an unfair advantage if they arent consenting to it.
 
At some point the woke left needs to get this straightened out. The situation is devoid of logic, and people are getting hurt because of it. The groups the woke left pretend to care about are getting hurt. Somehow transgender people have risen all the way to the top of the victim hierarchy, and there issues trump everyone else's.

I will give an example of how this makes no sense. Let's say a white male transitions to a female. She wants to compete in a sport where there are few gay black females. The white transgender female dominates the group of people. That once white male just ran over three protected classes all at once. How does that make any sense to let that happen? We cant stop talking about the white males hurting protected classes, now suddenly we are ok with it because they transitioned?
 
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