The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[bigb]

I’m my mind, what we’re talking about are sports like track and field. Maybe swimming. Possibly basketball. If a male transitions to female, she could still play football, if skilled enough.
I can absolutely see a (probably) huge advantage for a recently (even within five years) transitioned male to female throwing a discus in high school or college against other females.


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[LogGrad98]

This makes me think of an episode of "Community", where they declare their school mascot to be the "Human Beings". The mascot could not have any identifying features associated with gender, sex, race, etc.

The Greendale Human Beings:

My favorite TV comedy of all time. Good call out.

 

[One Brow]

The situation is devoid of logic, and people are getting hurt because of it.

Professional sports people get hurt, and I haven't seen anything that says an opponent being transgender makes that more likely.

We cant stop talking about the white males hurting protected classes, now suddenly we are ok with it because they transitioned?

Being trans, in and of itself, means you are in a disparaged minority.

 

[One Brow]

Define "dominate".

Occupy the top 3 positions in the sport, or even the top 2.

 

[One Brow]

I mean for someone telling all high school women athletes to "deal with" biological men dominating the sports ...

Which high school sports, and where, is this domination occurring? You seem a little delusional here.

 

[One Brow]

I can absolutely see a (probably) huge advantage for a recently (even within five years) transitioned male to female throwing a discus in high school or college against other females.

Care to name any?

 

[bigb]

Care to name any?

Like a specific case? Without doing any research, I couldn't. Like a specific advantage? Are you thinking a teenage male, even one taking estrogen and having transitioned within the last few years, wouldn't be stronger than most teenage females? I have a 15 year old daughter and a 12 year old son. He dominates her in just about everything that requires strength. And she is an athletic girl, having played competitive (club level) soccer for almost a decade. She participates in some track and field events as well. I guarantee you my son could throw a discus or shot putt farther than she can, right now. Imagine him as a 17 year old, who had been living as a male until he was 16 or so. Even if he started taking estrogen, he'd be naturally stronger than probably 99% of 17 year old females who had been living as a female their entire lives.

 

[framer]

I know 4 transgender individuals, and their motivations run all over the board. One is female to male, the other 3 are male to female. One, I feel is genuine and normal in that they just feel like they have always belonged in the other sex. One is kind of tragic where there was family disfunction of abuse that probably caused feelings of confusion or doubt combined with whatever they felt naturally. They are probably one of the least messed up in their family. The other two, older men to women, are just flat out pricks who use their identity the same way someone might use aggressive piercings or face tattoos as a gambit to make society uncomfortable and to thrust themselves into the center of attention. They are most definitely NOT victims of society, and go out of their way to cause conflict and insist that they be "handled" carefully and be given "carve outs' that they probably couldn't have obtained in their previous gender identity. Rather than try to develop a community where they can be understood, they move about like gypsies to every point and acquaintance in their old life, making sure that everyone that they knew tangentially is aware of who they are now. They aren't seeking "awareness and acceptance" as they quickly lose interest in talking to or spending actual time with people who would be accepting of them. One is a borderline homophobe who I have heard use slurs. Funny thing is that they would probably have never done that before "transition," making me think that it is all part of an act.

I'm not going to say these types of individuals make up the base of the transgender movement, or even a notable portion, but lets not pretend that it doesn't exist at all. Would men or boys who can't succeed in men's sports "pretend" to be trans to win women's sports? Probably not, but trolls would. And how the hell is someone going to try to divine intent when dealing in this area.

As far as does this happen and does it make a difference, I mean you have this: https://www.espn.com/espnw/athletes...ege-basketball-player-enjoying-best-year-life

Her team won the championship based on her 18 rebounds a game. Is it fair? Not my sport, not my league, not my call. I do bet that there was no discussion on fairness from anyone playing against her without them being clubbed and dragged. I'm fairly certain THAT wasn't fair. No one should get to tell the girls being pushed out of the way for a rebound by someone who lived as a man for over 40 years that they have to "Suck it UP!" Those girls deserve to be heard as well.

 

[Gameface]

So let's talk about what we're talking about.

Are people here objecting to transgender people participating in sports because they think those people are pretending to be transgender so that they can win at sports?

Seems like an exceptionally high price to pay to be a high school sports star in female sports.

Is that what people think is going on? And is this the real fear?

 

[Hotdog]

So let's talk about what we're talking about.

Are people here objecting to transgender people participating in sports because they think those people are pretending to be transgender so that they can win at sports?

Seems like an exceptionally high price to pay to be a high school sports star in female sports.

Is that what people think is going on? And is this the real fear?

I think people are objecting to it because its hurting women. I dont care what the motives are. Its about continuing to protect women.

 

[LogGrad98]

Care to name any?

So are you saying that until we see it become a problem it isn't a problem worth thinking about? Are you arguing there is no physical advantage in strength and size, generally speaking, between biologically male and female athletes? Just trying to understand your position. Do you think that transitioning takes away any natural advantages in terms of strength or size that may exist, or makes them irrelevant?

 

[framer]

I think people are objecting to it because its hurting women. I dont care what the motives are. Its about continuing to protect women.

I don't even think we need to go as far as banning transgender athletes from women's sports. I just think people ought to be able to discuss the ramifications openly without being dragged or labeled haters. This is why I was probably irrationally curt with Gameface who seemed to be leaning this direction. If my teenage daughter is being matched up against or forced to shower with someone who was a 49 year old man a few months ago, I get to have a say in that discussion.

 

[bigb]

So let's talk about what we're talking about.

Are people here objecting to transgender people participating in sports because they think those people are pretending to be transgender so that they can win at sports?

Seems like an exceptionally high price to pay to be a high school sports star in female sports.

Is that what people think is going on? And is this the real fear?

I don’t know if you referring to what I said or not, but I’m not objecting to it. At all. I simply pointed out what I view as the most likely sports it would be “an issue” and why it would be. I don’t think the vast majority of people would pretend to transgender to excel in sports. If that’s the motivation for it, that person has other serious mental issues.
I do think someone living as a male through puberty and then transitioning to female would have inherent physical advantages in sports over people living as female their entire lives.


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[One Brow]

Like a specific case? Without doing any research, I couldn't. Like a specific advantage? Are you thinking a teenage male, even one taking estrogen and having transitioned within the last few years, wouldn't be stronger than most teenage females? I have a 15 year old daughter and a 12 year old son. He dominates her in just about everything that requires strength. And she is an athletic girl, having played competitive (club level) soccer for almost a decade. She participates in some track and field events as well. I guarantee you my son could throw a discus or shot putt farther than she can, right now. Imagine him as a 17 year old, who had been living as a male until he was 16 or so. Even if he started taking estrogen, he'd be naturally stronger than probably 99% of 17 year old females who had been living as a female their entire lives.

My daughter actually threw the shot put in high school, and I guarantee you she could have out-thrown any of her brothers at that age. Throwers have different bodies than runners (which I'm guessing your daughter is, based on being in club-level soccer).

Go ahead, do some research on the subject.

 

[One Brow]

As far as does this happen and does it make a difference, I mean you have this: https://www.espn.com/espnw/athletes...ege-basketball-player-enjoying-best-year-life

Her team won the championship based on her 18 rebounds a game. Is it fair?

It's a women's community college league. What' makes you think there aren't former WNBA players who could be just as dominant at the age of 52?

 

[One Brow]

I think people are objecting to it because its hurting women. I dont care what the motives are. Its about continuing to protect women.

Which women are being hurt, that otherwise would not have been?

 

[One Brow]

So are you saying that until we see it become a problem it isn't a problem worth thinking about? Are you arguing there is no physical advantage in strength and size, generally speaking, between biologically male and female athletes? Just trying to understand your position. Do you think that transitioning takes away any natural advantages in terms of strength or size that may exist, or makes them irrelevant?

Size (height) doesn't go away. The process of transitioning often reduces muscle mass, so the strength differential diminishes greatly (I don't know if it disappears altogether or not). I'm not sure about bone mass.

Will we be controlling all sports for size?

 

[Hotdog]

Which women are being hurt, that otherwise would not have been?

All the women who have lost to the transgenders who have been winning. I think that is pretty obvious. Did you think this was going to be a gotcha moment?

 

[One Brow]

All the women who have lost to the transgenders who have been winning. I think that is pretty obvious. Did you think this was going to be a gotcha moment?

So by "hurt", you meant "lost"? Why should women be protected from losing?

 

[LogGrad98]

So by "hurt", you meant "lost"? Why should women be protected from losing?

Exactly. Why have women's sports and men's sports at all. Why not just sports and let the chips fall where they may?