The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Archie Moses]

Still waiting for evidence that will happen.

I don't think "all" sports will be dominated by transgender women, but a simple Google search will show you that many are dominating or bumping girls from placing or other opportunities.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, this has been a subject of debate for many years now. There are biological differences between women and transgender women and athletes.

I'm fine with drawing the line in the sand.

 

[One Brow]

There are plenty of boys far better than he. There will always be someone bigger/faster/stronger/better. Of course he should be allowed to compete. I’m not even saying (in this made up scenario) that he shouldn’t be allowed to compete against girls. I’m simply saying there would be built in natural advantages.

Currently, girls' high school sports are not being dominated by transgender athletes. So, how do these advantages show up, in actual life?

 

[One Brow]

The only reason that they had eligibility is because they were not good enough to compete when they were a man. Full stop.

She was good enough to be on a different college team back in the day. From what I can tell of the article, she quit because of her diabetes, which was much harder to control back then.

Your narrative just doesn't fit reality.

 

[One Brow]

I don't think "all" sports will be dominated by transgender women, but a simple Google search will show you that many are dominating or bumping girls from placing or other opportunities.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, this has been a subject of debate for many years now. There are biological differences between women and transgender women and athletes.

I'm fine with drawing the line in the sand.

Better athletes bump lesser athletes, every day. Since "many" are dominating, no doubt you can list another 5 or so?

I acknowledge the debate. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the primary reason for the debate is prejudice (revealed in how, for example, some people refer to cis women as just "women", without the modifier) . If the gender differences were so strong, why don't trans women rise dominate cis women in every sport?

 

[Archie Moses]

Better athletes bump lesser athletes, every day. Since "many" are dominating, no doubt you can list another 5 or so?

I acknowledge the debate. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the primary reason for the debate is prejudice (revealed in how, for example, some people refer to cis women as just "women", without the modifier) . If the gender differences were so strong, why don't trans women rise dominate cis women in every sport?

I tell you what, I'll list five cases of transgender athletes winning athletic, competitive events under one condition - you'll say you're ignorant of how many transgender athletes have won athletic events if I can. Deal?

 

[framer]

The primary reason for the debate is prejudice (revealed in how, for example, some people refer to cis women as just "women", without the modifier.)

This is. . . .just. . . .

 

[framer]

I tell you what, I'll list five cases of transgender athletes winning athletic, competitive events under one condition - you'll say you're ignorant of how many transgender athletes have won athletic events if I can. Deal?

He's already googled them, he knows. He just doesn't care because he is just that invested in whatever his dumb damn religion is.

 

[Archie Moses]

If the gender differences were so strong, why don't trans women rise dominate cis women in every sport?

Because letting transgender people participate in sports has been something new to different parts of society and there are a very small percentage of transgender people in sports. Does that make it right though?

To me, gender differences are that strong. Men are bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic than women in sports. This is not a knock on women. It's simple biological differences. I'm sure you're rolling your eyes and think I'm sexist at this point.

I'm sure you can show me links to articles that try and say otherwise, but it's lacking common sense and science, dude.

Look, I'm supportive of transgender people. I support GF and look to him as a pioneer role model parent. I support any transgender person because living their life as a certain gender makes them happy. Live life the way that makes you happy.

I just draw the line at sports. Why? Because transgender male to female people may have the brain of a female, identify as a female, but have undeniable biological traits that give them an advantage over biological women.

@One Brow - Trust me, I have wrong ideas and thought all the time. I have had ideas and thoughts that have progressed/evolved too. I have said, misread and misunderstood many things on Jazzfanz e.g. AOC and her daylight saving time comment I had automatically interrupted backwards in my head cause I think she's a divisive politician. I hope, you at least understand that while I may have opposing views, I'm capable of changing them.

You're going to have to provide me with some hard evidence that transgender people in sports aren't a problem to biological females losing. You can be accepting, loving and supporting but still draw lines.

 

[Archie Moses]

He's already googled them, he knows. He just doesn't care because he is just that invested in whatever his dumb damn religion is.

Quantify how much One_Brow likes to rebuttal posts with non-productive questions?

 

[bigb]

Currently, girls' high school sports are not being dominated by transgender athletes. So, how do these advantages show up, in actual life?

How many transgender females participate in high school sports. I’m guessing it’s not very many.
Again, my scenario is a hypothetical, based on what I see in my kids.
I’ll throw another in there. A couple houses away from me lives a 15 year old Sophomore. He participates on the high school swim team. While not a standout, he works hard, takes care of his body, and continues to improve. He set a new PR at the meet this past weekend. Again, he’s not a standout, but (according to him) his times are competing with the top females on the varsity team. Seniors in high school that Sophomore times are comparable to. After another year of post-puberty swimming, training, etc I would guess his times would surpass the girls’. Are you implying that a year after that, with more training, swimming, etc and a c cup instead of *********, he wouldn’t beat the girls?


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[One Brow]

How many transgender females participate in high school sports. I’m guessing it’s not very many.
Again, my scenario is a hypothetical, based on what I see in my kids.
I’ll throw another in there. A couple houses away from me lives a 15 year old Sophomore. He participates on the high school swim team. While not a standout, he works hard, takes care of his body, and continues to improve. He set a new PR at the meet this past weekend. Again, he’s not a standout, but (according to him) his times are competing with the top females on the varsity team. Seniors in high school that Sophomore times are comparable to. After another year of post-puberty swimming, training, etc I would guess his times would surpass the girls’. Are you implying that a year after that, with more training, swimming, etc and a c cup instead of *********, he wouldn’t beat the girls?

While he's also on hormone therapy, experiencing changes in his body, and losing muscle mass? I don't know how you can be so certain.

Ultimately, your position seems to be a case of "trans women/girls have an advantage over cis women/girls". Last I checked, tall people had an advantage over short people in most events, strong people over slight people, dexterous people over clumsy people, etc. Why is this particular case of advantage more egregious, in your opinion? Can you do better than 'unfair' (because being shorter/slighter/clumsier isn't 'fair', either)?

 

[One Brow]

Because letting transgender people participate in sports has been something new to different parts of society and there are a very small percentage of transgender people in sports. Does that make it right though?

I'm waiting to hear a reason why it is wrong?

To me, gender differences are that strong. Men are bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic than women in sports. This is not a knock on women. It's simple biological differences. I'm sure you're rolling your eyes and think I'm sexist at this point.

Certainly not because of that paragraph. I agree with the first four sentences in it.

I just draw the line at sports. Why? Because transgender male to female people may have the brain of a female, identify as a female, but have undeniable biological traits that give them an advantage over biological women.

Why separate out this advantage from any other sort of advantage?

I hope, you at least understand that while I may have opposing views, I'm capable of changing them.

Absolutely. While I think sometimes you posture a bit (just as everyone does), and have the usual amount of human self-deception, I also know that you want to be kind and do the right thing. I like your online persona, overall.

You're going to have to provide me with some hard evidence that transgender people in sports aren't a problem to biological females losing. You can be accepting, loving and supporting but still draw lines.

That's kind of proving a negative, is it not?

 

[One Brow]

This is. . . .just. . . .

... too accurate for a proper response?

 

[One Brow]

I tell you what, I'll list five cases of transgender athletes winning athletic, competitive events under one condition - you'll say you're ignorant of how many transgender athletes have won athletic events if I can. Deal?

If you goal is to get me to say I'm ignorant on the actual win/loss rate of transgender women athletes, no need to bother with research. I totally am. I have no idea what their overall performance is compared to cisgender women athletes.

That said, most posters in here have been saying that cis women/girls would be dominated by trans women/girls in athletics, not they would be occasionally out-competed. I agree that setting multiple records in a short period of time is domination, and so far we have two examples (a weightlifter and a cyclist). Do you have more?

 

[One Brow]

He's already googled them, he knows. He just doesn't care because he is just that invested in whatever his dumb damn religion is.

That would be the religion on Trying to Avoid Making Assumptions. I'm a huge tamato. We worship the color red and the element gold.

 

[Hotdog]

While he's also on hormone therapy, experiencing changes in his body, and losing muscle mass? I don't know how you can be so certain.

Ultimately, your position seems to be a case of "trans women/girls have an advantage over cis women/girls". Last I checked, tall people had an advantage over short people in most events, strong people over slight people, dexterous people over clumsy people, etc. Why is this particular case of advantage more egregious, in your opinion? Can you do better than 'unfair' (because being shorter/slighter/clumsier isn't 'fair', either)?

So your argument is life isnt fair? Deal with it? That seems to be at odds with a lot of your other stances.

How about adults play in kids leagues? Whats the difference between that and trans women playing against biological women? You ok with that? I mean, life isnt fair right? The kids should just deal with it.

This person right here identifies as a 6 year old girl. Does this person get to play against 6 year old girls? Size doesnt matter right? Life isnt fair.

 

[Gameface]

NPC and framer, winners of the award for people who clearly do not believe in the honesty of transgender identity.

I wish they could just say it.

Just say they you think transgender identity is about you, not the transgender person. They are trying to trick you into recognizing them as women but you're just too ****ing smart to fall for it.

Just say it. It is in every word you post in this thread but you're too cowardly to say it.

 

[framer]

NPC and framer, winners of the award for people who clearly do not believe in the honesty of transgender identity.

I wish they could just say it.

Just say they you think transgender identity is about you, not the transgender person. They are trying to trick you into recognizing them as women but you're just too ****ing smart to fall for it.

Just say it. It is in every word you post in this thread but you're too cowardly to say it.

I believe the transgender issue has become infused with trolls. Me believing some does not require that I believe all. You have the ability to look at each case and make logical decisions based on what the ask to society is. I definitely believe in tolerance and freedom, but that should apply ALL ways. Once the transgender identification is used say, like this:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...to-transgender-womans-brazilian-wax-complaint

A woman who doesn't want to shave a pair of balls, should NEVER be required to shave a pair of balls, ever. If that what is required to take transgenderism "honestly" than screw it. I don't think that this is what the largest portion of the transgender community requires or wants though, so I'm OK with them living their best life.

 

[framer]

That would be the religion on Trying to Avoid Making Assumptions. I'm a huge tamato. We worship the color red and the element gold.

Except you DO make assumptions, large, glaring , unscientifically supported assumptions paired with the desire to change the language to fit a mold that allows you to create judgements on those who do not share your assumptions. It's OK, all of us to some extent do it. You can flex on a NBA team message board all you want, but you need to realize that nobody is suppressing you when they don't accept your assumptions as truth. You haven't done the work to get them there, nor are you likely to.

 

[bigb]

While he's also on hormone therapy, experiencing changes in his body, and losing muscle mass? I don't know how you can be so certain.

Ultimately, your position seems to be a case of "trans women/girls have an advantage over cis women/girls". Last I checked, tall people had an advantage over short people in most events, strong people over slight people, dexterous people over clumsy people, etc. Why is this particular case of advantage more egregious, in your opinion? Can you do better than 'unfair' (because being shorter/slighter/clumsier isn't 'fair', either)?

I have never said it’s more or less egregious. I’ll say it again: my only point is that there would be a built in advantage for a recently transitioned female vs a lifelong female of the same age.
I personally don’t think a lot of (if any) high school age boys are going to “pretend” to be trans to dominate a sport. No one is going to transition just to win a state title in the 800 meter run.
I do think though that the potential is there for a lot of pissed of people when little Suzy loses her state championship to a kid that had balls last year and a c cup this year.


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