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The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

HermanG said:
You are talking about totally different type of respect. Respect for a person is not the same as respecting leadership, respecting law or professional respect for instance.

Draymond has been one of the key leaders in a dynasty that has won 4 championships, and his leadership during that era is a well documented fact. He should command respect as a leader as well as professional respect. Sometimes you have to work with people you dont like, but they are great at what they do. And Draymonds track record is pretty good.
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I disagree. You are talking more about respecting their accomplishments. I can respect the hell out of the success he has had on the basketball court, while still having zero respect for the person, and frankly the second kind is the only kind that matters really. He shows no respect, he deserves no respect.

I guess it is time to Godwin this biatch. Hitler did great things pulling his country out of a deep depression and generating huge national pride in the process. His people loved him, and he was a really great leader, that is not in dispute. But can you separate the good things he did from the bad? No obviouslY I am NOT saying Dray is Hitler, just pointing out that good or even great accomplishments don't automatically equal respect as a person.
 
HermanG said:
You are talking about totally different type of respect. Respect for a person is not the same as respecting leadership, respecting law or professional respect for instance.

Draymond has been one of the key leaders in a dynasty that has won 4 championships, and his leadership during that era is a well documented fact. He should command respect as a leader as well as professional respect. Sometimes you have to work with people you dont like, but they are great at what they do. And Draymonds track record is pretty good.
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His leadership is smoke and mirrors. He basically stopped giving a damn for 2 straight seasons and last year he wasn't anything special. His stupidity and lack of leadership actually cost them a championship when they were up 3-1 on the cavs and he pulled his cheap shot on Lebron.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I disagree. You are talking more about respecting their accomplishments. I can respect the hell out of the success he has had on the basketball court, while still having zero respect for the person, and frankly the second kind is the only kind that matters really. He shows no respect, he deserves no respect.

I guess it is time to Godwin this biatch. Hitler did great things pulling his country out of a deep depression and generating huge national pride in the process. His people loved him, and he was a really great leader, that is not in dispute. But can you separate the good things he did from the bad? No obviouslY I am NOT saying Dray is Hitler, just pointing out that good or even great accomplishments don't automatically equal respect as a person.
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I applaud your values and hope one day humanity reaches a level where we stop selecting douchebags to lead us. But we are not there yet. Draymond seems like a horrible guy tbh and I'm happy when he is out of the league.

But respecting accomplishments and authorities is still important, even if we would rank personal respect above it. If you are Poole you cannot dismiss it and just walk over people who have those things.
 
sip said:
His leadership is smoke and mirrors. He basically stopped giving a damn for 2 straight seasons and last year he wasn't anything special. His stupidity and lack of leadership actually cost them a championship when they were up 3-1 on the cavs and he pulled his cheap shot on Lebron.
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His leadership is very well documented. Also verified by his teammates and GM, as lately as after the punching incident when Bob Myers went to ask Steph if he was willing to take Draymonds place as the Warriors leader.

Steph addressed that in a press interview even.
 
sip said:
His leadership is smoke and mirrors. He basically stopped giving a damn for 2 straight seasons and last year he wasn't anything special. His stupidity and lack of leadership actually cost them a championship when they were up 3-1 on the cavs and he pulled his cheap shot on Lebron.
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Dude has ridden Steph's coattails his entire career. The one time he had the chance to actually lead the team without Steph, this was the result:

 
HermanG said:
I applaud your values and hope one day humanity reaches a level where we stop selecting douchebags to lead us. But we are not there yet. Draymond seems like a horrible guy tbh and I'm happy when he is out of the league.

But respecting accomplishments and authorities is still important, even if we would rank personal respect above it. If you are Poole you cannot dismiss it and just walk over people who have those things.
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It has nothing to do with having lofty values. That is a straw man here. It is all about who we are as people. And Dray just hasn't earned any respect. And giving respect simply based on accomplishments, like we do with money or fame in our society, is how we get such huge discrepancies between the haves and the have-nots. Notoriety and money matter more than character and that is a huge problem in society in general, and specifically here, it means Dray doesn't deserve any respect. To me it is just that simple. No reason to raise a ****** human being on a pedestal because they won a game. It does not excuse his ****** behavior. I can respect the accomplishment and still recognize the guy is a piece of ****. We need to stop raising up people like this as something more than what they are, or better than others, simply because they won something or have more money.

Frankly, it is not "important" to respect accomplishments, you can if you so choose but that isn't something important to reinforce in society, and since when is Dray an authority of any kind?
 
Its really nice for a player with draymonds skillset to get to play with literally the greatest shooter of all time.

Steph is just so damn incredible. I even think he is underrated a bit which probably doesn't make sense. I mean as far as shooting goes, there is steph and then there is everybody else. I dont think anyone else is really even close to his level.
 
LogGrad98 said:
It has nothing to do with having lofty values. That is a straw man here. It is all about who we are as people. And Dray just hasn't earned any respect. And giving respect simply based on accomplishments, like we do with money or fame in our society, is how we get such huge discrepancies between the haves and the have-nots. Notoriety and money matter more than character and that is a huge problem in society in general, and specifically here, it means Dray doesn't deserve any respect. To me it is just that simple. No reason to raise a ****** human being on a pedestal because they won a game. It does not excuse his ****** behavior. I can respect the accomplishment and still recognize the guy is a piece of ****. We need to stop raising up people like this as something more than what they are, or better than others, simply because they won something or have more money.

Frankly, it is not "important" to respect accomplishments, you can if you so choose but that isn't something important to reinforce in society, and since when is Dray an authority of any kind?
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I dont know how we got into discussing Dray as a role model. I sure as hell never suggested that.

And of course we need to reinforce respect for achievements in society. Its what drives people towards scientific advancements and non-commercial innovations. However fame and money are not accomplishments... even if they are sometimes rewards gained after you achieve something.

Test your logic:

Person A is the best human being possible but contributes nothing to the society.

Person B is a complete ******* maniac who finds a cure for a fatal disease through tireless efforts.

Which one should we respect more collectively?
 
HermanG said:
I dont know how we got into discussing Dray as a role model. I sure as hell never suggested that.

And of course we need to reinforce respect for achievements in society. Its what drives people towards scientific advancements and non-commercial innovations. However fame and money are not accomplishments... even if they are sometimes rewards gained after you achieve something.

Test your logic:

Person A is the best human being possible but contributes nothing to the society.

Person B is a complete ******* maniac who finds a cure for a fatal disease through tireless efforts.

Which one should we respect more collectively?
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You and LogGrad are not speaking the same language here.

Giving external rewards to people for their accomplishments and acknowledging them for it is very different than ranking them as a superior human being. LogGrad is more focusing on the latter.
 
MT Steve said:
You and LogGrad are not speaking the same language here.

Giving external rewards to people for their accomplishments and acknowledging them for it is very different than ranking them as a superior human being. LogGrad is more focusing on the latter.
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The basic premise is what we should respect people for. Rewards were just a plot twist he added in the previous post.
 
HermanG said:
The basic premise is what we should respect people for. Rewards were just a plot twist he added in the previous post.
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I aint gonna respect a whiny baby who gives up on his teammates and hits dudes in the junk. Thats all I know.
 
fishonjazz said:
I aint gonna respect a whiny baby who gives up on his teammates and hits dudes in the junk. Thats all I know.
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This. The issue I had with the whole conversation was the claim that people "deserve" respect for what they accomplish regardless of what a **** they are. Respect is earned. Full stop. Everyone can respect what they want, but accomplishments do not trump character imo.
 
Jingled said:
What the hell?


View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1633653623543459840
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Odd. Interesting that he's back in Washington. I went and looked at his numbers and was surprised by two things: 1) he was the 17th pick. I would have guessed higher... and 2) he only had one season where he scored >20ppg. My perception of him in the 90s was a superstar. Not saying he wasn't, but all his years in Seattle he never hit 20 ppg and I would have thought for sure he was 20+ that whole time.
 
infection said:
Odd. Interesting that he's back in Washington. I went and looked at his numbers and was surprised by two things: 1) he was the 17th pick. I would have guessed higher... and 2) he only had one season where he scored >20ppg. My perception of him in the 90s was a superstar. Not saying he wasn't, but all his years in Seattle he never hit 20 ppg and I would have thought for sure he was 20+ that whole time.
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Yeah but overall scores were low compared to today. And he shared the court with another 20 ppg scorer. Still it does seem low from my recollection as well.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Yeah but overall scores were low compared to today. And he shared the court with another 20 ppg scorer. Still it does seem low from my recollection as well.
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Well, another thing to blow your mind is that GP only averaged >20 twice on the Kemp-era Sonics.
 
infection said:
Odd. Interesting that he's back in Washington. I went and looked at his numbers and was surprised by two things: 1) he was the 17th pick. I would have guessed higher... and 2) he only had one season where he scored >20ppg. My perception of him in the 90s was a superstar. Not saying he wasn't, but all his years in Seattle he never hit 20 ppg and I would have thought for sure he was 20+ that whole time.
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That is definitely surprising. I would've guessed he had at least 5 or 6 seasons of averaging over 20ppg. I used to love watching him as a kid...so athletic and such a great dunker.
 
infection said:
Odd. Interesting that he's back in Washington. I went and looked at his numbers and was surprised by two things: 1) he was the 17th pick. I would have guessed higher... and 2) he only had one season where he scored >20ppg. My perception of him in the 90s was a superstar. Not saying he wasn't, but all his years in Seattle he never hit 20 ppg and I would have thought for sure he was 20+ that whole time.
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I remember him being superhyped in his first few years but he never really took the step to being a superstar and the hype sort of faded after Shaq came into the league.

But my perspective is weak since NBA coverage here was bad at that time.
 
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