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The off-season strategies (Jazz have limited options)

I think we could give them TB, Ed for Thad straight up. Saves them $5M this year and opens up at least $6M in cap space for the following year (Thad's deal is only $6M guaranteed in the last year). They have a notoriously cheap owner. The money savings will be a factor to him for sure.

I really like Thad for us. He gets a ton of deflections and steals and gives us someone who is the right size for a modern 4. He shoots it well enough to stretch the floor and would be an excellent pick and roll partner for Joe. Has traditionally been a good finisher and has lots of weird **** he can do around the rim. Also has a lot of half hook post stuff that works against players of all sizes.
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That could be huge. He could conceivably do for us what Taj Gibson used to do for the Rockets. The moves are there (I think) if the Jazz want to do them. A move like this, + drafting well + a good trade + using up the MLE and MIN. We could have a nice roster taking shape at the start of next season. Maybe one capable of winning 70 games, but I think doing that depends on getting the right key starter. Our 3rd star to go with Gobert and Donovan. Given the Jazz trajectory and success thus far - it's most likely to be our draft pick (because Donovan and Gobert were). That Thaddeus Young deal would be huge though.

So let's say you do that deal for Young. Then draft Theo Maledon (assuming San Antonio doesn't snatch him up). And then you sign Aron Baynes, and trade Mike Conley for Julius Randle.

C- Gobert, Baynes
PF - Randle, Young , J. Morgan
SF - Bogdanovic, Ingles, J. Brantley
SG- O'Neale, Maledon
PG - Donovan, Jordan Clarkson, R. Tucker

Wow. I think that roster would be much better over the product we put on the floor this season. Maybe 7-8 games better. We could go from a 60 win team to a 65-68 win team. (assuming everyone stays healthy of course). That's barring of course the chaos that is an NBA off-season. There are always one or two superstars that are secretly pushing for a way out of their current team. Devin Booker has reportedly sold his house in Phoenix, and if he is moved that could have ripple effects throughout the whole league. (crosses fingers) It would be funny if Booker got traded to the Wizards - I mean I'd laugh.
 
If we don't sign Clarkson I'm going to be pissed off. We need to find a way to do it.

Use the 1st to draft a PF who can defend, is tough and has some semblance of a jump shot. Though JZ might fall in love with some other player at another position and take him - who knows?
 
kabenac said:
If we don't sign Clarkson I'm going to be pissed off. We need to find a way to do it.

Use the 1st to draft a PF who can defend, is tough and has some semblance of a jump shot. Though JZ might fall in love with some other player at another position and take him - who knows?
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There were some quotes from Michelle Roberts about the CBA negotiations and I think they will leave the cap and tax at the projected amounts but have a bigger reserve/clawback that would reduce the actual salaries across the board... so they get to their 50/50 revenue split.... Long story short -

We should be able to retain JC and use our exceptions to fill out the roster without going into the tax. If your main 8 rotation guys are:

DM
Rudy
Joe
Royce
Bojan
Mike
JC
Thad Young
And then add a FA wing like Harrison or Bazemore

That would cover 95% of the rotation minutes... add in a draft pick and the G League guys and you are set. I might add a traditionally sized center on a minimum deal just in case Thad doesn't work at the 5... someone like Isiah Hartenstein.

I think we'd be good and under the tax.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Alright... here is something I would try to get done. Chicago likely wants to have cap space next year in the 2021 FA bonanza. They also will likely have prospects and high draft picks they need to get on the court. Markanan, Carter will want starter minutes... White Lavine Sato soak up a lot of the guard minutes... not sure they will draft another guard or they may go wing. On the wing they have OP Jr. and will likely want to get Hutchison some minutes. I think they take a wing with #4. All that said they may not have a ton of minutes for Thad Young.

I think we could give them TB, Ed for Thad straight up. Saves them $5M this year and opens up at least $6M in cap space for the following year (Thad's deal is only $6M guaranteed in the last year). They have a notoriously cheap owner. The money savings will be a factor to him for sure.

I really like Thad for us. He gets a ton of deflections and steals and gives us someone who is the right size for a modern 4. He shoots it well enough to stretch the floor and would be an excellent pick and roll partner for Joe. Has traditionally been a good finisher and has lots of weird **** he can do around the rim. Also has a lot of half hook post stuff that works against players of all sizes.

I would use him as the backup center and have him play 12 min at pf and 12 min at center per game. It's not something he has done and we couldn't play drop big with him at center, but he is extremely disruptive (4 deflections per 36 and 2.1 steals) and he contests a fair amount of shots... takes a fair amount of charges... so his rotations are on point. He might not protect the rim as well as some but would he be worse than Bradley? He'd provide a 5 out look and give our defense a changeup. He'd help us size up and can help on the bigger wings. In the playoffs you see guys his size (6'8 ish with a 7+ ft wingspan) play center a lot. You commit to it during the season... you live with its short comings and in the playoffs we have another look to help us matchup and it will hopefully pay dividends.

Its weird and different but we need something like this imo.
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You're willing to make this bet knowing that age 31 Thad had a semi-miserable year last year (by almost all metrics), I presume? And that Thad's defensive rebounding rate was just a touch over that of Emmanual Mudiay's (even though the Bulls were ranked last in defensive rebounding in the NBA, so it's not like he was just ceding to a board-eating teammate). Even TB's offensive rebounding rate is a fair deal higher than Thad's defensive rebounding rate; and TB's defensive rebounding rate is 170% that of Thad's.

I get the idea of wanting a quality veteran to play better defense and more versatile offense than TB provides. It seems risky to say that Thad will be that guy though. (It's a bet I'd be much more willing to make if we had a better backup C option lined up.)
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
There were some quotes from Michelle Roberts about the CBA negotiations and I think they will leave the cap and tax at the projected amounts but have a bigger reserve/clawback that would reduce the actual salaries across the board... so they get to their 50/50 revenue split.... Long story short -

We should be able to retain JC and use our exceptions to fill out the roster without going into the tax. If your main 8 rotation guys are:

DM
Rudy
Joe
Royce
Bojan
Mike
JC
Thad Young
And then add a FA wing like Harrison or Bazemore

That would cover 95% of the rotation minutes... add in a draft pick and the G League guys and you are set. I might add a traditionally sized center on a minimum deal just in case Thad doesn't work at the 5... someone like Isiah Hartenstein.

I think we'd be good and under the tax.
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It's going to be interesting to see what JZ can figure out. I would also love a combo guard who can defend well - I don't care if he's meh on offense - just someone who can slow down the PGs who have burned us to death and had crazy 40+ point nights.
 
kabenac said:
It's going to be interesting to see what JZ can figure out. I would also love a combo guard who can defend well - I don't care if he's meh on offense - just someone who can slow down the PGs who have burned us to death and had crazy 40+ point nights.
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Kris Dunn? (Although "meh" would be a charitable description of his offense, and it's not entirely clear yet if he'll be available.) But can't get much better defensively.
 
idiot said:
You're willing to make this bet knowing that age 31 Thad had a semi-miserable year last year (by almost all metrics), I presume? And that Thad's defensive rebounding rate was just a touch over that of Emmanual Mudiay's (even though the Bulls were ranked last in defensive rebounding in the NBA, so it's not like he was just ceding to a board-eating teammate). Even TB's offensive rebounding rate is a fair deal higher than Thad's defensive rebounding rate; and TB's defensive rebounding rate is 170% that of Thad's.

I get the idea of wanting a quality veteran to play better defense and more versatile offense than TB provides. It seems risky to say that Thad will be that guy though. (It's a bet I'd be much more willing to make if we had a better backup C option lined up.)
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I would try and have a fallback plan... sign John Henson to a minimum or Hartenstein... at very least Thad is a useful forward option if the center role doesn't work out.

He wasn't great this year but he also was in a **** organization with a **** coach. The metrics I care about are deflections and steals... he ranks near the top of the league in both. We rank near the bottom of the league in both.

Part of the reason they rank low in defensive rebounding is because they forced so many turnovers (another stat where we were near the bottom).

We'd lose TB's offensive rebounding, but I think the offense would be pretty damn good. Teams can't sag too far off of Thad on handoffs and picks because he can drive and shoot a little (37% on catch and shoot 3s this year). Passing and driving lanes would be wide *** open for Joe and JC.

Even if we slip on rebounding we will still be better on defense imo... Thad will be on time with rotations and will disrupt **** (which leads to easy offense). He won't be targeted like TB. The center's primary job is to anchor the defense and TB ain't doing that. We can supplement rebounding with a solid rebounding guard like Bazemore or Shaq Harrison... those guys would also cause chaos with deflections and steals.

The plan would be to split time between PF and C.
 
Put it this way... which contender do you feel better about playing with TB as the backup center instead of Thad?
 
Current backup center for the Lakers is Markieff Morris... Using our MLE for a traditional big to play drop big defense 100% of the time seems pretty dumb if you want to get on a contender level. I really think Thad would be great in that role for us and would provide so much **** we lack.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Current backup center for the Lakers is Markieff Morris... Using our MLE for a traditional big to play drop big defense 100% of the time seems pretty dumb if you want to get on a contender level. I really think Thad would be great in that role for us and would provide so much **** we lack.
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Did you watch Thad at all this year? He would be Ed Davis 2. Quite possibly the worst finisher in the NBA and an inconsistent shooter.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I would try and have a fallback plan... sign John Henson to a minimum or Hartenstein... at very least Thad is a useful forward option if the center role doesn't work out.

He wasn't great this year but he also was in a **** organization with a **** coach. The metrics I care about are deflections and steals... he ranks near the top of the league in both. We rank near the bottom of the league in both.

Part of the reason they rank low in defensive rebounding is because they forced so many turnovers (another stat where we were near the bottom).

We'd lose TB's offensive rebounding, but I think the offense would be pretty damn good. Teams can't sag too far off of Thad on handoffs and picks because he can drive and shoot a little (37% on catch and shoot 3s this year). Passing and driving lanes would be wide *** open for Joe and JC.

Even if we slip on rebounding we will still be better on defense imo... Thad will be on time with rotations and will disrupt **** (which leads to easy offense). He won't be targeted like TB. The center's primary job is to anchor the defense and TB ain't doing that. We can supplement rebounding with a solid rebounding guard like Bazemore or Shaq Harrison... those guys would also cause chaos with deflections and steals.

The plan would be to split time between PF and C.
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Agree that Thad is great with deflections and steals (though that's partly because of Bulls system). But I think you're underestimating the rebound hit from replacing TB with Thad. TB still has Thad more than doubled up on rebounding rate (which isn't dependent on playing style). And Hekate says something important about Thad's offense. I don't think his .521 TS% (vs. .681 for TB) can be blamed solely on Boylan.

I don't disagree that Thad would be good to have in the Jazz's pocket for some situations.
 
It is amazing how many players from the Bulls I can (at least temporarily) talk myself into thinking could play really important roles for the Jazz if they became available (have we even mentioned Shaq Harrison yet?). And it's also amazing how many of them I can convince myself might become available, given the uncertain situation/draft pick by the new regime there in Chicago.

But, as with most else, the odds are that we likely won't be in the best position (vs. the rest of the NBA) to make a worthwhile move here even if anything does open up.
 
idiot said:
It is amazing how many players from the Bulls I can (at least temporarily) talk myself into thinking could play really important roles for the Jazz if they became available (have we even mentioned Shaq Harrison yet?). And it's also amazing how many of them I can convince myself might become available, given the uncertain situation/draft pick by the new regime there in Chicago.

But, as with most else, the odds are that we likely won't be in the best position (vs. the rest of the NBA) to make a worthwhile move here even if anything does open up.
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I have a whole thread about Harrison.
 
idiot said:
Agree that Thad is great with deflections and steals (though that's partly because of Bulls system). But I think you're underestimating the rebound hit from replacing TB with Thad. TB still has Thad more than doubled up on rebounding rate (which isn't dependent on playing style). And Hekate says something important about Thad's offense. I don't think his .521 TS% (vs. .681 for TB) can be blamed solely on Boylan.

I don't disagree that Thad would be good to have in the Jazz's pocket for some situations.
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The deflections and steals are not system based. He has done that for multiple years now.
 
Hekate said:
Did you watch Thad at all this year? He would be Ed Davis 2. Quite possibly the worst finisher in the NBA and an inconsistent shooter.
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This is a pretty ****** comparison. They are completely different players. Thad wasn’t great inside 3 feet this year but 65% on his career and he has some weirdly solid midrange stuff that can be useful. He had Zach Lavine and coby white setting him up last year.

He’s been a consistently good defender getting a ton of deflections and steals through this career. Ed has one year where he rated out as a good defender but has basically been an offensive rebounder and that’s about it.

Totally fine is people disagree but let’s not throw that completely ****** comp out k.
 
We're operating in a world with limits. Thad's not great: he's a meh outside shooter and is actually bad enough from the line that I'd be really hesitant having him in close games in the last five minutes. He's also not the rebounder he should be given his size and is not a rim protector at all. I'd also be hesitant trying him at center.

But as a backup big, a 3/4 to spell Bojan and Joe, he's miles better than either Davis or Bradley, or Niang, for that matter. I'd want a real backup center, but I think there's no question he makes this team better. He works hard; he gets deflections, and he's got just enough range you have to leave him open. Give him Niang's minutes and we're a stronger team.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
The deflections and steals are not system based. He has done that for multiple years now.
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It's a small influence, perhaps, but he had his highest steals rate in of his careers this past year. It's unlikely that a 31-year old comes up with that without some system effect. But yes, I did not mean to imply that he's not great at that. He's always been very good at these.
 
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