The Official "Ask A Mormon" Thread

[green]

So why not also excommunicate her husband? Has he not supported her in this and openly defied the church in a similar way? Does he get a pass because he is a man?

You have to remember that by and large, the church is still run by volunteer people who don't have the training or experience to be in their leadership positions. A lot of times people have a really hard time seeing the big picture and focus on the tree. In this case, she was the tree. The chopped down the tree and their problems went away. He was left standing. I'd bet that if he had gone on a huge media blitz and thrown a huge stink about it, he'd be ex'ed as well.

 

[LogGrad98]

You have to remember that by and large, the church is still run by volunteer people who don't have the training or experience to be in their leadership positions. A lot of times people have a really hard time seeing the big picture and focus on the tree. In this case, she was the tree. The chopped down the tree and their problems went away. He was left standing. I'd bet that if he had gone on a huge media blitz and thrown a huge stink about it, he'd be ex'ed as well.

In addition, every case is handled on its own merits. My dad was in positions like this for most of his adult life (3x bishop, 2x stake presidency, 1x stake president, 3x other callings in bishopric, high council, etc.) and he talked to me about the process in length. I can tell you that these decisions are not made lightly and if you look at her history with the church they gave her ample opportunity to come back from her apostasy (yes that is what this was, full-on apostasy from the teachings of the church). Yet all she did was get bigger and louder in her opposition and full-on proselyting of false doctrine and trying to lead others astray. It surprises me not one bit. You cannot picket and protest to get God to change his mind. And if you don't believe that it came from God in the first place, why be in the church at all?

 

[TroutBum]

It's not that simple, either. I'm impressed if you did quit all those things all at once. Must have had a good reason.

My interpretation of the disclosed personal information leads to an opinion that you may have a low "addictive index", a term I just invented to describe a personal biochemistry phenonema that might be associated with perhaps a less "focused" sort of psychology. I on the other hand, can get hopelessly addicted to cinnamon, or almost any flavor of candy or chips. . . . . I believe if I used those things, I'd end up living under a freeway overpass trying to haul in the $1000 dollars a day I'd need for both the "right" to the spot from the gang/mafia plus the stuff I'd need to "use" to stay functional enough to hold up the cardboard sign.

What do you expect a Church to say when every bishop has ten derelicts in the ward who are just as bad off as all that? It's normal administrative reaction, bro.

Don't be impressed, it wasn't hard. I agree with your assessment about addiction, which in a roundabout way, puts a finer point on what I was trying to say. If I have a beer with a friend, I'm not worried. If I get drunk with a friend, then I'll be worried. I know I will never abuse alcohol or drugs again in my life, so I'm not worried about the WoW.

This is a serious question:

Are people reunited with their pets in the afterlife? Just wondering if there's anyone who thinks that might be possible. Because you know, for some people, their dog (or cat, or horse or whatever) is their best friend and truly is like family for them.

I will be friggin pissed if my dogs aren't waiting for me.

I bet there's war in heaven.

And Jesus is gay with Muhammad.

I can't wait for the tape.

I'm not as torn by the Kate Kelly issue. She knew the rules, and when she wanted to play, but play by her own rules, they removed her.

There are so many religions out there, if she really, truly felt that she should hold leadership positions, or the priesthood, I bet she can find a religion that allows her to do that.

I have my issues with the church, but at the end of the day, they have made it very clear where they stand.

All of that being said, I've hesitated responding in this thread because they have disciplined members for what they have written on message boards/facebook/etc recently. I'm not anonymous on this site at all. I've had my name on here multiple times, and I'm okay with that. BUT, I've definitely said somethings that a more "strict" member could take offense to and try to remove my standing in the church over.

Also, that's why I've been so thankful for Colton answering my questions. It's very easy to attack.

I have never heard of such a thing. If the church came after me for things I've said online, I'd tell them to stick it in their ear. Sounds to me like an over zealous bishop got a bug up his *** -- there's no way that is a normal practice.

 

[sirkickyass]

To me the Kate Kelly issue is pretty standard church discipline. You are asked in the temple interview if you support the church leaders and your local leaders. She pretty openly defied the church leadership at every level, and fought against their authority. Whether the rules are right or wrong they are the rules and she openly defied them, so what did she expect? And the way she went about this shows she really does not at all understand how the church functions, and that she blatantly has no respect for the process of revelation that leads the church. It makes me wonder why she wants to be a member if she doesn't believe the church is lead by revelation.

This is why I resigned membership over the issue and not you. That's my moral choice to make.

Sister Kelly's situation is not ordinary, nor is she a standard "apostate." She is person who very plainly identifies as Mormon and wants to be a member of the mainline church. She is not fighting them, they are saying that there is no place for people like her. It is an act of exclusion and rejection of an individual, not of a person choosing to go their own way. It was cruel, uncalled for, and intolerant of an organization that makes it a standard practice every month to give Brother and Sister Yahoo yokel an open-mic to say whatever they want. Sister Kelly is a person who has a principled, scriptually-based, idea as to why the Mormon church can and should be more progressive on gender issues than other denominations. Concepts such as a Heavenly Mother or a sexless Heavenly Father (there is some confusion and debate on this point) are nearly unique to LDS experience. Saying the Book of Mormon or the D&C isn't true is apostasy. Saying that they are true and support big and new ideas is a healthy exercise of faith.

If you swap her positions regarding women for the equivalent position involving african americans 30 years ago, your position would be in full support of excommunicating black persons who wanted to remain in the church for openly agitating for the priesthood. This is quite literally the same argument: the rules are the rules and they are given by revelation.

The history of the church reveals it isn't that simple. Rules change. Leaders are imperfect. Many of the leaders have been, to put it bluntly, raging dicks. We can try to paper over those things but they are truths. There simply isn't another way to explain how the church did so many dreadfully wrong things in the past. In some sense all institutions run by old white dudes are going to be conservative. The LDS Church is especially conservative. But what happened to Kate Kelly was abhorrent and removed any sense I had that any God I would want to worship or even recognize could be engaged in any way with the LDS faith. Certainly Thomas S. Monson has no claim to the title of Prophet.

 

[TroutBum]

I know we're friends, but that ^^ is straight up hatorade. I felt like I was reading a KatieMCR post.

 

[colton]

I think our primary dispute was on growth rates, although I'm glad to see you accept the 36% number. Obviously that's not a number the church really wants to get out there.

I don't necessarily accept it, but I don't reject it either. At any rate, it seems plausible in light of our previous discussion. And I don't think that website you linked to made it up, so at least one numbers person working for the church felt that it was an accurate number.

The other part of that I found fascinating was the wide disparity between adult members and members 18 and under. I've suspected for some time that the church is struggling with youth retention and I think we can infer that this is accurate from those demographic numbers combined with low real growth rates over the last 15 years.

Seems plausible, given the overall trends in youth of all religions. And I've heard church leaders talk about losing the youth in their late teens/early twenties.

Full disclosure: I've spent more time in LDS churches in the last year than I did the previous ten combined due to a very large spike in the number funerals and wedding receptions I've attended. That being said, I officially resigned church membership this year over the church's treatment of Kate Kelly.

Sorry to hear that. I myself don't have a problem with her excommunication, based on the info I've read in the media. My view is similar to what others have posted... namely, she went beyond merely stating an opinion to actively working to oppose the church leadership. I do have other friends/family who feel the same way you do, though; however I don't think any of them resigned their membership. Of course you haven't been a practicing member in a good long while.

 

[bigb]

Here is where I stand. I love the Book of Mormon. I think it's fantastic. Lots to learn, lots of good teachings, lots of fantasticness.

Joseph Smith was kind of a scum bag.
Brigham Young was the opposite of Joseph Smith, but still scum.

When you look at the early Church, it went through a lot of growing pains, ala a new business. A lot of revelation was received that was wrong, and the leaders learned, adapted and progressed. Some sketchy was done as well, with the destroying of Nauvoo Expositor and all the polyandry going on by Smith.

Brigham Young was a little too willing to share the Church's donated funds with his family and completely did away with what little "separation of Church and State" there was left.

Then you throw in all the bigotry/racism/etc found throughout a church led by revelation...well. It gets tough.

So, I pray multiple times a day, read my Book of Mormon every day, and my Bible almost as much. I don't delve into the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants too often. I listen to conference, go to Church most Sundays, keep my mouth shut in class, learn something good every week, do my callings, pay my tithing, remember that the Church is run by men, and know that I am putting forth an honest effort.

If you look at my actions, I am a very, very devout Mormon. If you read my words, you'd think I was an apostate. Ha ha.

I'm giving it my best, and I try to improve every day, and I know that when it all ends, God will know my intentions and it will all sort itself out.

Holy ****, my dad and I had almost this exact conversation today.

 

[Nightmare]

https://www.challengemin.org/moon.html

Joseph Smith said the moon was inhabited by men?
Brigham Young said the moon and the sun was inhabited by men?

in 1961 President Joseph Fielding Smith said

"We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it…
The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."

 

[Nightmare]

https://www.challengemin.org/moon.html

Joseph Smith said the moon was inhabited by men?
Brigham Young said the moon and the sun was inhabited by men?

in 1961 President Joseph Fielding Smith said

"We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it…
The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."

Hmm actually these are pretty good answers to my own question.

https://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism...claimed_that_man_would_never_walk_on_the_Moon
and
https://en.fairmormon.org/Brigham_Young/Teachings/Moon_and_sun_are_inhabited

 

[babe]

This is why I resigned membership over the issue and not you. That's my moral choice to make.

Sister Kelly's situation is not ordinary, nor is she a standard "apostate." She is person who very plainly identifies as Mormon and wants to be a member of the mainline church. She is not fighting them, they are saying that there is no place for people like her. It is an act of exclusion and rejection of an individual, not of a person choosing to go their own way. It was cruel, uncalled for, and intolerant of an organization that makes it a standard practice every month to give Brother and Sister Yahoo yokel an open-mic to say whatever they want. Sister Kelly is a person who has a principled, scriptually-based, idea as to why the Mormon church can and should be more progressive on gender issues than other denominations. Concepts such as a Heavenly Mother or a sexless Heavenly Father (there is some confusion and debate on this point) are nearly unique to LDS experience. Saying the Book of Mormon or the D&C isn't true is apostasy. Saying that they are true and support big and new ideas is a healthy exercise of faith.

If you swap her positions regarding women for the equivalent position involving african americans 30 years ago, your position would be in full support of excommunicating black persons who wanted to remain in the church for openly agitating for the priesthood. This is quite literally the same argument: the rules are the rules and they are given by revelation.

The history of the church reveals it isn't that simple. Rules change. Leaders are imperfect. Many of the leaders have been, to put it bluntly, raging dicks. We can try to paper over those things but they are truths. There simply isn't another way to explain how the church did so many dreadfully wrong things in the past. In some sense all institutions run by old white dudes are going to be conservative. The LDS Church is especially conservative. But what happened to Kate Kelly was abhorrent and removed any sense I had that any God I would want to worship or even recognize could be engaged in any way with the LDS faith. Certainly Thomas S. Monson has no claim to the title of Prophet.

I pop off a lot with my criticisms of LDS leadership, but I have no problem with this decision. The fundamental truth or falseness of "Mormon" ideas centers on affirming a self-identity that follows the pattern ostensibly described by a God who is heterosexual, married with with children, and who is teaching others to follow that example.

People can do whatever they want, but the way "forward" is to adhere to the pattern that propagates the species and the values.

I don't expect you to agree. It is a fact that our thinking often follows our conduct. If we start out with an ideal, and just don't live by it, of course our opinions will fall in line.

God doesn't hate anyone, but it is alleged He hates things that are destructive in His perspective, of His people.

 

[sirkickyass]

I pop off a lot with my criticisms of LDS leadership, but I have no problem with this decision. The fundamental truth or falseness of "Mormon" ideas centers on affirming a self-identity that follows the pattern ostensibly described by a God who is heterosexual, married with with children, and who is teaching others to follow that example.

People can do whatever they want, but the way "forward" is to adhere to the pattern that propagates the species and the values.

I don't expect you to agree. It is a fact that our thinking often follows our conduct. If we start out with an ideal, and just don't live by it, of course our opinions will fall in line.

God doesn't hate anyone, but it is alleged He hates things that are destructive in His perspective, of His people.

Do you know who Kate Kelly is? There is no part of what she was doing that has anything to do with homosexuality (she is heterosexual), marriage (she is married), or rearing children (no idea if she has children).

I guess this is what I get for taking you off ignore for one day.

 

[Archie Moses]

This is why I resigned membership over the issue and not you. That's my moral choice to make.

EDIT:

I apologize, Kicky. I don't wanna Archie this thread. Just hard to bite my tongue sometime. My bad.

 

[Archie Moses]

https://www.challengemin.org/moon.html

Joseph Smith said the moon was inhabited by men?
Brigham Young said the moon and the sun was inhabited by men?

in 1961 President Joseph Fielding Smith said

"We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it…
The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."

Not everything they said was doctrine. In fact, a lot was just opinions of man.

 

[Archie Moses]

Lot,who was the most righteous man in the land, slept with his daughters. David, we know what he did. Peter, denied Christ.


Man gonna be man which is an enemy to god.

Thanks,

Adam.

 

[Siro]

Lot,who was the most righteous man in the land, slept with his daughters. David, we know what he did. Peter, denied Christ.


Man gonna be man which is an enemy to god.

Thanks,

Adam.

It's been a while since I read my Bible, but didn't Lot's daughters get their father ****faced drunk, and then they had their way with him? Don't blame the victim!

 

[Dr. Jones]

It's been a while since I read my Bible, but didn't Lot's daughters get their father ****faced drunk, and then they had their way with him? Don't blame the victim!

Okay fine. Lot got **** faced drunk.

 

[green]

This is why I resigned membership over the issue and not you. That's my moral choice to make.

Sister Kelly's situation is not ordinary, nor is she a standard "apostate." She is person who very plainly identifies as Mormon and wants to be a member of the mainline church. She is not fighting them, they are saying that there is no place for people like her. It is an act of exclusion and rejection of an individual, not of a person choosing to go their own way. It was cruel, uncalled for, and intolerant of an organization that makes it a standard practice every month to give Brother and Sister Yahoo yokel an open-mic to say whatever they want. Sister Kelly is a person who has a principled, scriptually-based, idea as to why the Mormon church can and should be more progressive on gender issues than other denominations. Concepts such as a Heavenly Mother or a sexless Heavenly Father (there is some confusion and debate on this point) are nearly unique to LDS experience. Saying the Book of Mormon or the D&C isn't true is apostasy. Saying that they are true and support big and new ideas is a healthy exercise of faith.

If you swap her positions regarding women for the equivalent position involving african americans 30 years ago, your position would be in full support of excommunicating black persons who wanted to remain in the church for openly agitating for the priesthood. This is quite literally the same argument: the rules are the rules and they are given by revelation.

The history of the church reveals it isn't that simple. Rules change. Leaders are imperfect. Many of the leaders have been, to put it bluntly, raging dicks. We can try to paper over those things but they are truths. There simply isn't another way to explain how the church did so many dreadfully wrong things in the past. In some sense all institutions run by old white dudes are going to be conservative. The LDS Church is especially conservative. But what happened to Kate Kelly was abhorrent and removed any sense I had that any God I would want to worship or even recognize could be engaged in any way with the LDS faith. Certainly Thomas S. Monson has no claim to the title of Prophet.

While I do agree with some of what you're saying, the simple fact is she tried to change the rules.

The church said no thanks, you can stay and play by our rules.

She declined, they kicked her out.

Pretty simple. The Church makes the rules for their organization. If you play by them, you should expect to be removed from that organization. That's life.

 

[sirkickyass]

While I do agree with some of what you're saying, the simple fact is she tried to change the rules.

The church said no thanks, you can stay and play by our rules.

She declined, they kicked her out.

Pretty simple. The Church makes the rules for their organization. If you play by them, you should expect to be removed from that organization. That's life.

I think if you look at her materials, you'll find that by far the most common thing she asked for was for church leadership to pray to God about it.

 

[babe]

This is why I resigned membership over the issue and not you. That's my moral choice to make.

Sister Kelly's situation is not ordinary, nor is she a standard "apostate." She is person who very plainly identifies as Mormon and wants to be a member of the mainline church. She is not fighting them, they are saying that there is no place for people like her. It is an act of exclusion and rejection of an individual, not of a person choosing to go their own way. It was cruel, uncalled for, and intolerant of an organization that makes it a standard practice every month to give Brother and Sister Yahoo yokel an open-mic to say whatever they want. Sister Kelly is a person who has a principled, scriptually-based, idea as to why the Mormon church can and should be more progressive on gender issues than other denominations. Concepts such as a Heavenly Mother or a sexless Heavenly Father (there is some confusion and debate on this point) are nearly unique to LDS experience. Saying the Book of Mormon or the D&C isn't true is apostasy. Saying that they are true and support big and new ideas is a healthy exercise of faith.

If you swap her positions regarding women for the equivalent position involving african americans 30 years ago, your position would be in full support of excommunicating black persons who wanted to remain in the church for openly agitating for the priesthood. This is quite literally the same argument: the rules are the rules and they are given by revelation.

The history of the church reveals it isn't that simple. Rules change. Leaders are imperfect. Many of the leaders have been, to put it bluntly, raging dicks. We can try to paper over those things but they are truths. There simply isn't another way to explain how the church did so many dreadfully wrong things in the past. In some sense all institutions run by old white dudes are going to be conservative. The LDS Church is especially conservative. But what happened to Kate Kelly was abhorrent and removed any sense I had that any God I would want to worship or even recognize could be engaged in any way with the LDS faith. Certainly Thomas S. Monson has no claim to the title of Prophet.

For those of you too disinterested to go back and check what Kicky said, here it is from the horse's mouth. The bolded part.

Kicky has to be operating on about a half-watt bulb to not know what I'm talking about, when my point was addressed to to what he said.

But, I'm sure, he's turned out that bulb by now.

Good job Kicky. You're so smart. You don't even know what you're talking about.

 

[babe]

I think if you look at her materials, you'll find that by far the most common thing she asked for was for church leadership to pray to God about it.

Someone who feels the LDS scriptures can be interpreted to make the LDS church "more progressive on gender issues" than Bible-based(self-declared though that may be) churches?

The main problem the LDS Church has been fighting for over a hundred years is the fears, misapprehensions, and charges of innovation in doctrines which have been levied by those churches. The LDS Church wants to be more like them.

Actually, there may be elements of the leadership that really want to be progressive, but believe it's better to make progress gradually and thus avoid a lot of heated contentions.

My personal reason for having no issue about her excommunication follows from what you said about her "principled beliefs" trending towards empowering the LDS "faithful" towards "progressive gender issues", which I took as LGBT sorts of issues.

I don't think the LDS or any other church. . . . or for that matter. . . . social engineers with dreams of utopia or convenience for commerce. . . . should be fundamentally more influential than the "collective wisdom" or "social notions" of individuals. government by the people, man.

Too many people want a church with the power to change people to their ideal. Too many people want a government with the power to force people to do is what deemed "right" according to some pinhead idealist. well, even some supersmart practical genius. same dif.

Someone who's bothering the LDS leaders and telling them what to pray for, and what they should do. . . . gotta be a "progressive" who also wants the government to fix everything.. . . . their way.

Nah, Kicky, I might not know who Kate is, but I know why you like her. Ring her up, and tell her you're praying for a way to make God into something you and her both could agree on. You could be the next "Prophet".

I understand the malaise mainstream Christians have about progressive Mormons prattling about some utopia, some "Zion Community". It's fundamentally different from holding a specific traditon sacrosanct.

My fundamental misgiving about Mormonism is the fear that it was started, and led, by "progressives" with a "brave new world" in mind. Most religions probably start with notions like that in some way, but when the main problems are continuity and propagation of the concepts, it will quickly become "conservative".

A hundred years from now, there will be a lot of smart youngsters hooting at your current ideas as "conservative", I suppose. But it is a legitimate question people are entitled to. . . . If it wasn't true in the first place, why should we hold it sacred?.

Kate was like the Israelites of old who tried to steady the Ark, when according to the tradition, God had forbidden anyone but the designated priests to touch the Ark.