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The Official Blow up the team thread.

NUMBERICA said:
You are delusional if you think Sloan's refusal to play his best PG simply because he was a rookie (and not saying anything about the investment that the franchise put into getting Deron, to the point that Larry had to direct Sloan to do the only sensible thing) didn't have any affect on their relationship.

I'm not saying that's the only reason things went sour (I point to the abject failure of the team to make tough decisions on AK and Memo as the primary reasons as it ruined their ability to retain [Matthews] or seek out [who knows?] better players), but I can't imagine they weren't seeds. Not all seeds sprout, but when the conditions are right...
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Why would Deron have signed his initial 3 year extension if this was the case?
 
LunaticWolf said:
And there were 8 other teams that year that tanked and ended up with nothing.
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And your evidence that keeping mediocre players over dumping them? Because despite my example. The real argument is the development of the youth. Did the Spurs leave Duncan on the bench? Did the Cavs leave Lebron on the bench. Portland left their Jermaine O'neal on the bench and he blossomed as soon as he left and got minutes.
 
LunaticWolf said:
Why would Deron have signed his initial 3 year extension if this was the case?
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It doesn't seem that you read or grasped my post (or how extensions work, or how the Jazz were doing at the time) and I wish that surprised me.

I think the fact that he didn't sign a longer extension says a lot about his faith in the organization. Despite that they were good (but not great, and not showing the cajones to make tough decisions).
 
gregbroncs said:
And your evidence that keeping mediocre players over dumping them? Because despite my example. The real argument is the development of the youth. Did the Spurs leave Duncan on the bench? Did the Cavs leave Lebron on the bench. Portland left their Jermaine O'neal on the bench and he blossomed as soon as he left and got minutes.
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Is Favors as polished offensively as Duncan?

Is Burks Lebron?

We have question mark players who might become really good players. They didn't come into the league like Bron and Duncan as stars.
 
LunaticWolf said:
Why would Deron have signed his initial 3 year extension if this was the case?
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3 years guaranteed, starting at the max (for his service time), with 10.5% raises v. the uncertainty that comes with playing for another year + smaller raises from other teams + the Jazz's ability to match any offer.

Has any 1st round pick rejected a max extension?
 
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LunaticWolf said:
Is Favors as polished offensively as Duncan?

Is Burks Lebron?

We have question mark players who might become really good players. They didn't come into the league like Bron and Duncan as stars.
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So tread water, hoping to sneak into the playoffs, and then what?
 
NUMBERICA said:
It doesn't seem that you read or grasped my post (or how extensions work, or how the Jazz were doing at the time) and I wish that surprised me.

I think the fact that he didn't sign a longer extension says a lot about his faith in the organization. Despite that they were good (but not great, and not showing the cajones to make tough decisions).
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He didn't sign a longer one because his agent told him not to. CP3 did the same thing.

It sets him up for 1 more max length contract as he now expires at 31 and will sign for more money.

If he took a 5 year he would expire at 33 and could be forced to sign for less due to age.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Wolf, you seem to think that the argument is that people that are ready to move on are trying to tank. This is wholly inaccurate and a misrepresentation. Either a deliberate one, or one that reflects a staggering ignorance to the argument being put forth by most (this isn't going to work, might as well see what we're going to move forward with for better or for worse [where worse has rewards of its own]). You also seem to believe that the only consequence to dumping good but will never be great players is inevitable lottery for years to come.



A truly sad argument that is probably the one the Jazz come back to anytime they have to weigh any kind of risk.
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This is why I'm convinced Lunatic is a troll.

He says random crap and ignores obvious facts.

For example, in one post he says "then why did he sign a 3 year extension" talking about Deron.

Herp derp derp.

Players don't take the QO instead of an extension. The only way a player would do that is if they faked an injury and sat out that whole year to avoid injury then leave as a FA.

Point me to the last player to do that.


What I hate is I guarantee you know this but you like to troll and say things like you do just to argue.
 
LunaticWolf said:
He didn't sign a longer one because his agent told him not to. CP3 did the same thing.

It sets him up for 1 more max length contract as he now expires at 31 and will sign for more money.

If he took a 5 year he would expire at 33 and could be forced to sign for less due to age.
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I have literally never heard this. Care to cite anything?
 
LunaticWolf said:
He didn't sign a longer one because his agent told him not to. CP3 did the same thing.

It sets him up for 1 more max length contract as he now expires at 31 and will sign for more money.

If he took a 5 year he would expire at 33 and could be forced to sign for less due to age.
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Wrong.
 
GVC said:
Wrong.
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https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700244225/Utah-Jazz-sign-Deron-Williams-to-extension.html?pg=all

They are saying 28 and 30, but same logic applies.

Then there are financial matters.

By signing the deal he did, Williams will be either 28 or 29 when he is eligible for a new contract that could be for max money and up to six years.

Had he taken the five-year extension, he'd be 30 then.

"When you're 30, that's not really a good age," Williams said. "It seems like that's a little frowned-upon. It seems like you're going down from there."
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Lunatic wolf.

Since you like history to support facts go look at the teams that won the championship and tell me how they got their best player.

MJ? Drafted him

Dream? Drafted him

Kobe? Drafted him

Duncan? Drafted him

Dirk? Drafted him

So Miami got LeBron and Shaq went to La as FA.

Would Utah EVER get that player? Answer is a resounding no.

So we either need to draft the franchise player or we are screwed.

Get it?
 
Durrrr said:
Lunatic wolf.

Since you like history to support facts go look at the teams that won the championship and tell me how they got their best player.

MJ? Drafted him

Dream? Drafted him

Kobe? Drafted him

Duncan? Drafted him

Dirk? Drafted him

So Miami got LeBron and Shaq went to La as FA.

Would Utah EVER get that player? Answer is a resounding no.

So we either need to draft the franchise player or we are screwed.

Get it?
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Nice. And how many team have spent YEARS in the lottery trying to get "that franchise player"?

We aren't owned by billionaires like some other NBA teams. Years in the lottery would force Millers to sell.
 
Maybe I'm just a silly fan, but all I care about is the pursuit of a championship. My 90's blue-balls won't be cured by meaningless trips to the playoffs as a low-seed and no real shot.
 
LunaticWolf said:
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700244225/Utah-Jazz-sign-Deron-Williams-to-extension.html?pg=all

They are saying 28 and 30, but same logic applies.
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That's only part of the story. They sign for 3 because it's at 7 years service time that the max salary increases to start at 30% of the cap (as opposed to 25% for 0-6 years service time). If the player is confident he'll earn another max contract, and the salary cap is increasing at a healthy rate, the player stands to make more money by signing a 3-year extension. Even if the salary cap moves very little, the player doesn't stand to lose much at all (although there is still the risk that the player doesn't get a max contract after those 3 years). This should be more common under the new CBA, as the cap on raises is smaller (7.5 and 4.5 v. 10.5 and 8).
 
GVC said:
That's only part of the story. They sign for 3 because it's at 7 years service time that the max salary increases to start at 30% of the cap (as opposed to 25% for 0-6 years service time). If the player is confident he'll earn another max contract, and the salary cap is increasing at a healthy rate, the player stands to make more money by signing a 3-year extension. Even if the salary cap moves very little, the player doesn't stand to lose much at all (although there is still the risk that the player doesn't get a max contract after those 3 years).
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More in-depth but more or less what I was saying. This is what your agent does.

Why were you saying wrong then?
 
NUMBERICA said:
So what's your answer to the puzzle of winning a championship? Because this isn't one.
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We have our picks, we need to bring in a supporting cast.

We had a chance in 08 to get to the finals. 09 we were set back by injuries.

and in 10? Our cast was older and less effective, and we didn't replace them with as good players.
 
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