The Official Fire Lindsey Thread

[cowhide]

The counter argument is that Iggy to Golden State has put them in contention and that the draft picks are then worthless.
But don't forget that Landry and Jack had to be renounced for this deal to happen and so they lose that bench that put them over the hump last season.

Iggy is so overrated. Besides getting Iggy now puts Barnes on the bench so there might be some chemistry questions. Losing both Landry and Jack negates the Iggy move and I would say it makes them worse. Landry and Jack were two glue guys that hold teams together. I think GS is at least the same and I would argue they are worse than they were last year. Throw in Curry, Bogut and Iggy (bad knees) injury history and I have no doubt GS will suck again in 2017 (another projected 2014 draft).

This was a brilliant move and if GS sucks worse this year (yes a possibility) than this move could make Lindsey executive of the year. The best thing about it is that the Jazz are not bringing back Mo, AJ, Millsap and Foye. However, the crowning jewel is playing time for our young guys.

 

[Borat]

Iggy is so overrated. Besides getting Iggy now puts Barnes on the bench so there might be some chemistry questions. Losing both Landry and Jack negates the Iggy move and I would say it makes them worse. Landry and Jack were two glue guys that hold teams together. I think GS is at least the same and I would argue they are worse than they were last year. Throw in Curry, Bogut and Iggy (bad knees) injury history and I have no doubt GS will suck again in 2017 (another projected 2014 draft).

This was a brilliant move and if GS sucks worse this year (yes a possibility) than this move could make Lindsey executive of the year. The best thing about it is that the Jazz are not bringing back Mo, AJ, Millsap and Foye. However, the crowning jewel is playing time for our young guys.

I don't think GSW have gotten worse. If Bogut finally recovers, they have a nice starting lineup with Curry, Iggy, Thompson, Lee, and Bogut. Barnes is great 6th man. And they have not lost Jack and Laundry just yet. Thompson is averaging 17pg as a 23 year old on 40% shooting from 3. This is not a bad move for GSW at all. They gave 2 draft picks for Iggy, which is not that high of a price to pay for Iguodala, who was also top 10 pick, but already proven. I think they will be good next year. But how good in comparison to other teams in the West? They overachieved this year. I don't think they are a top team in the West even with addition of Iggy and Thompson/Barnes improving. I think the pick will be in the 18-21 range, like this year, but who knows, an injury here and there and we may be looking at lottery in the best case. 2017 pick though is the wild card. At that time GSW might suck again. Overall, not a bad deal for both teams. GSW gets better short term to possibly give their fans play-off excitement for a couple of years, but we get some picks that might not be so bad.

 

[cowhide]

Lol where the ****s your crystal ball? Odds they don't hit are much much MUCH higher than the odds of them hitting. But let's make a plan on wishful thinking. We weren't getting anything else close to this for this cap space? Did your crystal ball tell you that too? Wtf does the GS playoff record from a decade have to do with their current team? Did you know the jazz made the playoffs x amount of times the last 20 years... So they're a lock this year too right?

What did you expect the Jazz to do? Re-sign Millsap, AJ, Mo and Foye and stay the course like they have in the past. Of course it would have been nice to get another young player but the Jazz have and will continue to get more young players. Bringing Barnes is great but it make us better (when we don't want to be this year) and causes problems down the road if we get lucky and get a Wiggins or Parker. It would have made GS worse but they were not going to give up either Barnes or Thompson without having protection on the picks. That is why we got the 1st round picks UNprotected.

Again, there is no way GS leaves them unprotected if Barnes is included which ensures the picks are not going to be lottery picks. You are right no one knows what is going to happen and right now the 2014 pick is projected around the 20's but there are players that are projected like James Young or the Harrison twin which would be great value for the pick even in the 20's. However, if you are an optimist the idea of the Tankers losing enough not to make the playoffs, a reality in the competitive western conference and landing in the lottery is real and exciting no matter how big the odds are. It is a chance to change the franchise direction for a decade. So go ahead and rain on the parade and complain about how bad getting picks and playing time are for the future of the organization but this move just adds to the new mentality of this organization which I've been waiting for years to occur. Time will tell but I'd be excited than complain about what might happen. Besides the money is not your money and the Jazz were going to have to spend some more to fill out the roster.

Another bonus is the ability to sign our own free agents and keep the core together something other teams haven't been able to do, I can see only a bright future for this team.

 

[gregbroncs]

I'm not talking about salary cap. I'm talking about $24 million. These guys get paid real money.



Someone has refuted the salary floor recently. It doesn't apply in the new CBA, which means our franchise is now out $24 million.

There is no salary floor. But they have to pay a certain amount to their roster. If they don't reach that amount they must pay the players on the roster the extra. So they were going to spend most of that money anyway. This way they spend it while acquiring Rush and 4 draft picks.

 

[Borat]

There is no salary floor. But they have to pay a certain amount to their roster. If they don't reach that amount they must pay the players on the roster the extra. So they were going to spend most of that money anyway. This way they spend it while acquiring Rush and 4 draft picks.

There is a salary floor, and it is 90% of the CAP this year. https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q15

So, while Infection poster is right: 20 mil is real money, we had to spend it ANYWAY! We spent it on expiring contracts of back-up scrubs, hence ensuring our young core gets to start and play good minutes and got draft picks in the process. This is not a bad financial move at all.

 

[Getting Traded]

When the news first hit that all we were acquiring was Biedrins and Jefferson -- sure this looked like we were getting raped, but when we found out we not only got Rush plus 4 picks (unprotected as well), how could we not think of this as anything but brilliant. Aside from losing DeMarre who is not a major piece, we got rid of all the dead wood we had been complaining about all last year, all the guys who were playing ahead of the young guys and stymying our future progress. The only piece of dead wood we have now is Marvin (and Biedrins and Jefferson) but they're all expiring -- so they're all part of the tank. Chances are that Biedrins may start at the beginning of the year because Kanter may not be ready. So, it's going to be a long season but at least the young guys will be developing. Hopefully, we get rid of Corbin after this year -- who knows, when we start off the season with 0-10, maybe Jerry will be back in the saddle again.

 

[gregbroncs]

There is a salary floor, and it is 90% of the CAP this year. https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q15

So, while Infection poster is right: 20 mil is real money, we had to spend it ANYWAY! We spent it on expiring contracts of back-up scrubs, hence ensuring our young core gets to start and play good minutes and got draft picks in the process. This is not a bad financial move at all.

You are correct. But a lot of people thought we had to spend that money on new players. Technically we didn't, We could have just split it between the players on our roster.
.
Bottom line is we got Rush and 4 draft picks for nothing.

 

[Borat]

Another bonus is the ability to sign our own free agents and keep the core together something other teams haven't been able to do, I can see only a bright future for this team.

That is absolutely critical point. Look at OKC. They've been able to do an incredible thing: get 3 superstars on their roster (Durant, Harden, and Westbrook) by doing what we are trying to do now: draft good young players and let them play, while accumulating other good draft positions while young stars are not mature enough to win. However, in addition to doing that they committed lots of money and long contracts by overpaying average player like Perkins, forcing them to lose Harden, whom they could no longer afford. So, let's keep that flexibility to pay our own young worthy guys when they are out of rookie contracts.

 

[Borat]

You are correct. But a lot of people thought we had to spend that money on new players. Technically we didn't, We could have just split it between the players on our roster.
.
Bottom line is we got Rush and 4 draft picks for nothing.

Well, we can't just split it between players on the roster - they have contracts, but the bottom line is correct. We had to spend that money, and we spent it, while getting 2 first round picks, which may be pretty decent - perhaps lottery. As far as Rush, the guy is coming from 2nd ACL surgery, and is probably not going to be as good as Foye was for us last year. In other words, another scrub, but a body that can back-up Hayward or Burks, which is EXACTLY what we need. Jefferson also has something left in the tank to come in for 10 mins a game or in case of injury to Hayward. This is as perfect of a move as one could make.

 

[gregbroncs]

Well, we can't just split it between players on the roster - they have contracts, but the bottom line is correct. We had to spend that money, and we spent it, while getting 2 first round picks, which may be pretty decent - perhaps lottery. As far as Rush, the guy is coming from 2nd ACL surgery, and is probably not going to be as good as Foye was for us last year. In other words, another scrub, but a body that can back-up Hayward or Burks, which is EXACTLY what we need. Jefferson also has something left in the tank to come in for 10 mins a game or in case of injury to Hayward. This is as perfect of a move as one could make.

Actually they could. According to GVC if a team fails to spend up to 90% of the cap they must spread the rest of the cap space among their players or something like that. It boils down to the same thing. They were going to spend that money.
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How could he not be as good as Foye? Foye gave us nothing but shooting. Don't need a knee to give us what Foye did. Just be able to set up and shoot. His career average 3pt % is better than foye's best year. Only way he does not give us that is if he is unable to play.

 

[Borat]

Actually they could. According to GVC if a team fails to spend up to 90% of the cap they must spread the rest of the cap space among their players or something like that. It boils down to the same thing. They were going to spend that money.
.
How could he not be as good as Foye? Foye gave us nothing but shooting. Don't need a knee to give us what Foye did. Just be able to set up and shoot. His career average 3pt % is better than foye's best year. Only way he does not give us that is if he is unable to play.

True, but second ACL is no joke. At least Foye played OK defense, allowing him to stay on the floor in spite of sub 40% FG. Not that Foye was great or anything, but all I am saying is that getting Rush is no coup. He never averaged 10 ppg in his career and is coming off second ACL. Hence the Foye comparison. My hope for Rush is that he will be a serviceable player like Foye was last year. If you think you are getting some great young talent in Rush coming off second ACL surgery and never even averaging 10 ppg in the first place, you will be disappointed.

 

[Deleted member 848]

True, but second ACL is no joke. At least Foye played OK defense, allowing him to stay on the floor in spite of sub 40% FG. Not that Foye was great or anything, but all I am saying is that getting Rush is no coup. He never averaged 10 ppg in his career and is coming off second ACL. Hence the Foye comparison. My hope for Rush is that he will be a serviceable player like Foye was last year. If you think you are getting some great young talent in Rush coming off second ACL surgery and never even averaging 10 ppg in the first place, you will be disappointed.

Buddy put this argument to some ****ing rest. There are several ways to decide why Brandon Rush is a far-superior player-- but let's just focus on his driving capabilities. I think I can count on my hands the amount of times that Foye drove to the basket for a layup or dunk this past season. That simply will not be the case for Brandon

 

[Borat]

Buddy put this argument to some ****ing rest. There are several ways to decide why Brandon Rush is a far-superior player-- but let's just focus on his driving capabilities. I think I can count on my hands the amount of times that Foye drove to the basket for a layup or dunk this past season. That simply will not be the case for Brandon

I hope you are right, but he is still rehabbing from second ACL surgery. That cannot help his abilities to drive to the basket, especially when there wasn't all that much to begin with. Just setting realistic expectations in light of his second pretty devastating injury.

 

[green]

Curry is legit. Absolutely legit. How do you guard him? Put someone bigger on him and push him around big time. I really don't think he can hold up over a season.

 

[green]

We didn't get them for nothing. We got them for Jefferson and Millsap.

Yay! Best trade ever! We got two picks that will probably be better than Jefferson and Millsap and a very valuable scorer/defender.

 

[green]

True, but second ACL is no joke. At least Foye played OK defense, allowing him to stay on the floor in spite of sub 40% FG. Not that Foye was great or anything, but all I am saying is that getting Rush is no coup. He never averaged 10 ppg in his career and is coming off second ACL. Hence the Foye comparison. My hope for Rush is that he will be a serviceable player like Foye was last year. If you think you are getting some great young talent in Rush coming off second ACL surgery and never even averaging 10 ppg in the first place, you will be disappointed.

Ouch.

 

[Gegenläufigen]

Buddy put this argument to some ****ing rest. There are several ways to decide why Brandon Rush is a far-superior player-- but let's just focus on his driving capabilities. I think I can count on my hands the amount of times that Foye drove to the basket for a layup or dunk this past season. That simply will not be the case for Brandon

foye actually had higher ft rate than rush in the 11'/12' season

i actually think foye is the more well rounded player, just watch some of his pick n roll play at times

rush can't do much besides shoot

reaon i like rush is cuz he is taller so we wont have to watch him get exploited on d as much

 

[CALJAZZFAN]

That would be CALJAZZFAN

Thank you, sir. Are you not able to respectfully disagree with someone without insulting them? Now that the dust has settled and I'm over the initial shock of getting back absolute garbage from GS, I don't think this is a terrible move, but I don't think it's a genius move, like the rest of you. I see how it could work out favorably, but it puts us exactly where we were last year with Jefferson and Millsap (who were better players and would have had more suitors and arguably could have yielded more in return), yet we did nothing with those expiring contracts. I suppose one could argue that not doing anything enabled us to pull off this trade. If we got back one good player with upside, I would have have been happier. No need to insult people though is there?

 

[gregbroncs]

Thank you, sir. Are you not able to respectfully disagree with someone without insulting them? Now that the dust has settled and I'm over the initial shock of getting back absolute garbage from GS, I don't think this is a terrible move, but I don't think it's a genius move, like the rest of you. I see how it could work out favorably, but it puts us exactly where we were last year with Jefferson and Millsap (who were better players and would have had more suitors and arguably could have yielded more in return), yet we did nothing with those expiring contracts. I suppose one could argue that not doing anything enabled us to pull off this trade. If we got back one good player with upside, I would have have been happier. No need to insult people though is there?

So after next years draft you'll be happy with this trade? Because we will get somebody with upside. Whether they realize that upside is not sure but they will have it. I'm in the this is a great trade camp. But I was with the D-Will trade as well. I still think we fleeced the Nets in that trade, but if neither of Favors or Kanter turn into an All-Star then we probably did not get the better deal there. With this trade it's just the opposite. The only way this trade is a failure is if either of Jefferson or Biedrins plays over the youth on this team. Because we got 4 picks and 1 player with some upside (Rush) for nothing. We were not going to re-sign Millsap and Jefferson anyway. Maybe you could argue it cost us DMC. But still that is one hell of a haul if all it cost us was DMC.

 

[Borat]

...I'm over the initial shock of getting back absolute garbage from GS, I don't think this is a terrible move, but I don't think it's a genius move, like the rest of you. I see how it could work out favorably, but it puts us exactly where we were last year with Jefferson and Millsap (who were better players and would have had more suitors and arguably could have yielded more in return), yet we did nothing with those expiring contracts.

Well, I think you will agree that two 1st round picks from GSW are not garbage. The pick could be fairly decent even next year. Iggy is no superstar, and they did lose some good bench players, like Jarred Jack and Laundry, who both put up similar numbers to Iggy last year. It may very well be lottery or teens pick as early as 2014 and another lotto pick in 2017. This is not garbage. Even the pick we got from them this year (after narrowly missing on their #8 overall last year due to protection) was key to getting Burke, and I think they overachieved, hence other 2 picks will be good too. We are not talking about Miami Heat picks here. GSW can give us good draft positions.

As far as actual players though, I do agree - they are garbage, including Rush, whom many here like, but is coming off second major ACL injury. However, the whole genius of this move is that we ARE getting absolute garbage players back. AJ and Millsap were players that were very good and they kept us contending for 8th play-off spot, while preventing Kanter and Favors from getting minutes. So, we found ourselves in the spot where we are not good enough to compete against big boys and at the same time have decent enough veterans to have top 3 picks young talent planted to the bench and hence developing. The whole idea of the move is to get young talent (picks) and garbage veterans to come off the bench to back up our young talent, which will now get a chance to player more and develop. And while they are developing and are not yet good enough to win, we will collect our own young talent (picks), and hence rebuild via draft. Then use the money on OUR OWN talent rather than get inferior talent outside and then not having enough money to keep our own better players (see OKC who had to give up star Harden because they committed to average Boston's Perkins long term). Trading our CAP space (or Millsap/AJ) for decent veterans with longer deals hampers our development and ability to sign our own better younger players in the future. That's why trading for absolute garbage expiring vets and solid picks IS a genius move.