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The official "let's impeach Trump" thread

The China thing is perplexing since trump is negotiating for things in the USA’s interest, whereas Ukraine it was investigating a us citizen for his political advantage.

apples vs. orangutans
This.
Such a dumb thing to bring up.
Has Trump been trying to hide the fact that he imposed tariffs on china? Did he use his personal lawyer to implement the tariffs? Did we learn of the tariffs via a whistleblower? Did trump suddenly change what he was doing with the tariffs right after a whistleblower called him out?

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Is he though? How do we know he’s negotiating things with China in the country’s interest? Especially when the country’s interest would’ve been best served having never started a trade war at all? Or do we need another farm bailout to prove the trade war’s effect?

Yeah but that is speculative and subjective.

there is certainly short term pain with playing hardball with China but there are also potential long term benefits if executed smartly. I’m behind the current policy but whether or not it is being run properly is currently uncertain.

For all y’all who say I’m blindly against everything trump does, please pay attention.
 
Yeah but that is speculative and subjective.

there is certainly short term pain with playing hardball with China but there are also potential long term benefits if executed smartly. I’m behind the current policy but whether or not it is being run properly is currently uncertain.

For all y’all who say I’m blindly against everything trump does, please pay attention.

Is it speculative? I’m just following Trump’s brand, selfishness and self-promotion. When hasn't he sacrificed national security for personal gain? And I’m not speculating on the negative effect the trade war has had on our economy. That can be verified with economic data.

 
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Yeah but that is speculative and subjective.

there is certainly short term pain with playing hardball with China but there are also potential long term benefits if executed smartly. I’m behind the current policy but whether or not it is being run properly is currently uncertain.

For all y’all who say I’m blindly against everything trump does, please pay attention.
I'm also mostly in favor of the trade war with China. Should have happened before now. It was going to happen sooner or later. Sucks that Trump is the one calling the shots, because of how stupid he is, but good thing it is happening.
 
Is it speculative? I’m just following Trump’s brand. When hasn't he sacrificed national security for personal gain?

You are speculating that he may not be negotiating in the country’s best interest. The China policy has short term pain and potential long term benefit.

Your hypothesis that he is doing it for himself and not the country is not unreasonable based on his other actions and motivations, but there is no evidence at this time to back it up in this specific case.
 
Fox News is fair and balanced. They have Democrats and Republicans on there programs. Unlike liberal outlets.

Weird how its right in your face, but you still wanna call Fox News biased.

Waiting for the sudden amnesia response.

Haha, you gave me a literal lol moment, thank you!

Just confirming: you are saying that neopolitano is liberal? Is this because he points out trump’s warts? There are many conservatives who have a conscience. The guy is a libertarian. He used to sub in for Glenn Beck, for goodness sake. He is unquestionably right wing.

regarding fair and balanced, Tucker, Sean and Laura 8-11. Totally balanced. They throw Juan Williams on the five and claim balance. No one but cultists swallow this obvious fiction.
 
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The broader point is y’all saying there are no impeachable offenses and here is a libertarian lawyer and judge who clearly destroys your nonsense.
 
Republicans continue to side with Putin bogus propaganda over loyal and competent American experts. Traitorous. They know it is total BS. They choose party over country, again and again.

 
a) I wasn't talking about China at all.
b) As has been well established, this was not at all about asking Ukraine to investigate corruption in general. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming. Like I could start listing the evidence and not be done an hour from now. But you're not looking for evidence, are you? You're looking for excuses.
c) I noticed you conveniently didn't answer any of my questions.

There is no evidence Trump asked for anything in return for any investigation. It is a matter of treaty to cooperate in such investigations. Court records in the Ukraine document that an investigation was opened already. The Ukraine had already been offering evidence to the US investigators, even before the election in Ukraine. It was a campaign issue there, and the voters clearly wanted investigations into corruption there. That is what they voted for.

The fake dossier used to illegally deceive the FISA court and obtain a surveillance warrant on Carter Page, which enabled the FBI to also monitor everyone Page contacted.... the whole Trump campaign staff and Trump himself, originated in the Ukraine. Even in the investigation into Paul Manafort, who was actively working against the subversion of the 2014 Ukraine election by George Soros' goons, which was something the Russians were concerned about as well, Weisman (Mueller's manager in the whole affair), a prosecutor notoriously unfair in multiple cases before, they were unwilling to open the pandora's box in ways that would expose Biden, Hillary or Obama, so they just wrung his neck on tax issues while doing a protratctded attempt to motivate him to lie about Trump somehow.

You are swallowing whole hog some of the worst lies, the worst false accusations, and the most blatant attempts to subvert the American electoral system.

Is your cause worth that.
 
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This article from yesterday's New York Times is relevant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/us/politics/ukraine-russia-interference.html

Here are many quotes from the article. Apologies for pasting in sentences and paragraphs without always indicating the cut marks.

-----

Moscow has run a yearslong operation to blame Ukraine for its own 2016 election interference. Republicans have used similar talking points to defend President Trump in impeachment proceedings.

The Republican defense of Mr. Trump became central to the impeachment proceedings when Fiona Hill, a respected Russia scholar and former senior White House official, added a harsh critique during testimony on Thursday. She told some of Mr. Trump’s fiercest defenders in Congress that they were repeating “a fictional narrative.” She said that it likely came from a disinformation campaign by Russian security services, which also propagated it.

In a briefing that closely aligned with Dr. Hill’s testimony, American intelligence officials informed senators and their aides in recent weeks that Russia had engaged in a yearslong campaign to essentially frame Ukraine as responsible for Moscow’s own hacking of the 2016 election, according to three American officials.

The revelations demonstrate Russia’s persistence in trying to sow discord among its adversaries — and show that the Kremlin apparently succeeded, as unfounded claims about Ukrainian interference seeped into Republican talking points.

... the campaign by Russian intelligence in recent years has been... complex as Moscow tries not only to undermine the government in Kyiv but also to use a disinformation campaign there to influence the American political debate.

...President Vladimir V. Putin ordered military and intelligence operatives to mount a broad campaign to sabotage the American election.

Russian intelligence operatives deployed a network of agents to blame Ukraine for its 2016 interference. Starting at least in 2017, the operatives peddled a mixture of now-debunked conspiracy theories along with established facts to leave an impression that the government in Kyiv, not Moscow, was responsible for the hackings of Democrats and its other interference efforts in 2016, senior intelligence officials said.

The Russian intelligence officers conveyed the information to prominent Russians and Ukrainians who then used a range of intermediaries, like oligarchs, businessmen and their associates, to pass the material to American political figures and even some journalists, who were likely unaware of its origin, the officials said.

That muddy brew worked its way into American information ecosystems, sloshing around until parts of it reached Mr. Trump, who has also spoken with Mr. Putin about allegations of Ukrainian interference. Mr. Trump also brought up the assertions of Ukrainian meddling in his July 25 call with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, which is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry into whether he abused his power by asking for a public commitment to investigations he stood to gain from personally.

Russia’s operation to blame Ukraine has become more relevant as Republicans have tried to focus public debate during the impeachment inquiry on any Ukrainian role in the 2016 campaign, American officials said.

Republicans have denounced any suggestion that their concerns about Ukrainian meddling are without merit or that they are ignoring Russia’s broader interference. “Not a single Republican member of this committee said Russia did not meddle in the 2016 elections,” Representative Elise Stefanik, Republican of New York, said Thursday.

Indeed, Ms. Stefanik and her Republican colleagues on the Democratic-led House Intelligence Committee, which is conducting the impeachment hearing, have also steered clear of the fringe notion that Mr. Trump mentioned to Mr. Zelensky, which is pushed by Russian intelligence: the so-called CrowdStrike server conspiracy theory, which falsely suggests Ukraine, not Russia, was behind the breach of Democratic operatives’ servers.

Mr. Trump repeated the baseless claim on Friday in an interview with “Fox & Friends,” laying out the narrative and doubling down after a host gently pressed him on whether he was sure of one aspect of the debunked theory, that the F.B.I. gave a Democratic server to what Mr. Trump had inaccurately described as a Ukrainian-owned company.

“That is what the word is,” Mr. Trump replied.

Moscow has long used its intelligence agencies and propaganda machine to muddy the waters of public debate, casting doubts over established facts. In her testimony, Dr. Hill noted Russia’s pattern of trying to blame other countries for its own actions, like the attempted poisoning last year of a former Russian intelligence officer or the downing of a passenger jet over Ukraine in 2014. Moscow’s goal is to cast doubt on established facts, said current and former officials.

“The strategy is simply to create the impression that it is not really possible to know who was really behind it,” said Laura Rosenberger, the director of the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which tracks Russian disinformation efforts.

Although American intelligence agencies have made no formal classified assessment about the Russian disinformation campaign against Ukraine, officials at several of the agencies have broadly agreed for some time that Russian intelligence services have embraced tactics to shift responsibility for the 2016 interference campaign away from themselves, officials said.

Russian media, which is freer now than under the USSR days but nevertheless about as compliant with Putin as the US media is compliant with the US major interests set, nominally progressive and quite absolutely anti-Trump, is interesting if you can understand it.

Putin tells his insiders circles that the West, in their UN initiatives and various strategic moves, has violated the most significant agreements with Russia. He eloquently cites people like Hillary and Obama and others as not having any honor at all, and declares that the UN under the present set of influences consists of a "no law" as opposed to a "new law", as the globalist "new world order" is represented as.

China also fundamentally believes, or declares, the US, EU, as the "bad". So we have perhaps only India, Brazil and a few other nations who are Christian nations historically, who have a populace that generally is favorable to the US.

Anyone sitting in an easy chair who believes they can parse all the international moves is just dreaming, making up stuff. The question next is who can we believe in our own system...

Frankly, our own agencies, now still operation under the pre-Trump agendas, can not be counted on to be honest in anything. For most of them, it is a desperate-looking situation where the whole program is in danger.

To make it short here, Trump so far has maintained a consistent course. He has not in any way actually "feathered his nest" as so many have charged. The accounts are simply fabricated, or divined outta thin air. Every word he says gets turned upside down to support some damn narrative contrary to the clear truth.

Trump so far has put our security, our economic interests, and in fact general good economic developments, FIRST. Every trade deal has improved things for the US in terms of fairness and opportunity.

Trump has also tried to be fair with his domestic critics and opponents. He went, hat in hand as I suppose it, to call on the CFR chief to discuss his proposed campaign for the Presidency, and shared his concerns there, up front. He has not been assertive about prosecuting his "friend" Hillary or others, but he says, simply, that we need to investigate things and find out what has been done. He has every right to want to know how the dems got his campaign spied on.

This is worse than Watergate by multiple orders of magnitude. Nixon had some guys do a break in and get some info.. Obama, Brennan, and Comey had federal employees deceive or hijack our FISA courts to get access to everything Trump had going on.

It is morally offensive that anyone would even try to justify this, or misdirect the public about it, with a smokescreen of lies and charges.
 
The China thing is perplexing since trump is negotiating for things in the USA’s interest, whereas Ukraine it was investigating a us citizen for his political advantage.

apples vs. orangutans

Trump believes, and the Justice Dept. believes, that investigating Joe Biden, along with other instances of U.S. State Dept. corruption in Ukraine circa 2016, is in the national interest. The DOJ has been doing it since May and has issued public statements to that effect. Whether you or others like it or not, Trump and his administration have the right to pursue this as foreign policy.

Adam Schiff and some corporate media are the ones claiming that Trump has a personal vendetta with Joe Biden and that everything else related to Ukraine is just crazy talk. Next, they'll try to smear and discredit AG Barr (which they've started), then they'll go after Michael Horowitz, then John Durham. However, evidence to the contrary will come out, beginning with Horowitz's FISA abuse report on Dec. 9.
 
Trump believes, and the Justice Dept. believes, that investigating Joe Biden, along with other instances of U.S. State Dept. corruption in Ukraine circa 2016, is in the national interest. The DOJ has been doing it since May and has issued public statements to that effect. Whether you or others like it or not, Trump and his administration have the right to pursue this as foreign policy.

Adam Schiff and some corporate media are the ones claiming that Trump has a personal vendetta with Joe Biden and that everything else related to Ukraine is just crazy talk. Next, they'll try to smear and discredit AG Barr (which they've started), then they'll go after Michael Horowitz, then John Durham. However, evidence to the contrary will come out, beginning with Horowitz's FISA abuse report on Dec. 9.

why do they believe it if there is no evidence? Biden is many things, no serious person believes he is corrupt.

of all the thousands of corrupt people in Ukraine, trump wanted an announcement on one person: Biden. Coincidence, I guess, that he is leading opposition candidate.

And yeah, we know, everyone is picking on Donnie and he is totally a persecuted victim.
 
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