What's new
By:

the situation in Egypt

VINYLONE said:
Marcus has no idea what he is talking about. None.
Click to expand...

Duck Rodgers said:
He understands it better than you. Freedom is not going to be the end result of this. The US exported inflation which is allowing subversive groups to prey on the Egyptian civilians for their own selfish purposes. That's what's happening, not fear mongering. Where is the real story to be found? Should I listen to the people on the streets, who are being used? The Middle East is overrun with official news organs, not really any use reading them. If Al-Jeezera English, or the Guardian, is best we've got, we're not getting the scoop.
Click to expand...

I wasn't going to argue with him. I figured I'd just resurrect this thread in a year and say, "Ha!"

Egypt will either end up like Pakistan was under Mursharraf, a military dictatorship with mock elections or it will end up like Iran with theocratic leader using his Ahmadinejad puppet and mock elections.
 
DutchJazzer said:
now that a middle eastern country wants freedom. where is america. ooh wait thye're busy FORCING "freedom" on iraq and afghanistan.
Click to expand...



And while as a loyal American I feel a little sensitive about the insults. . . . . but in this case we need to bifurcate the separate issues of the natural American sympathy for the values of freedom, and our unconstitutional foreign wars in the service of the UN global agenda.

I'm looking forward to the day when Americans will reclaim their freedom. . . . hopefully at the ballot box and not in the streets shaking fists at tanks.

What a lot of Americans have not understood is that our corporate interests have beein leaning very heavily on the actions of our government, and the UN is more of a trojan horse filled with the minions of megalomaniacal fascists than the beautiful promise of a better life for all mankind. UN needs to rewrite their constitution to include a Bill of Rights even better fortified against the lust for power by elitists, and needs to have all its delegates elected like our Senators and Representatives are. We should use our position as a leader in the world stage to demand those improvements in the scheme for world governance.

Our military adventurism on behalf of imposing our elitists' programs on other countries is something that is problematical at best, doubtful whether it will work out good in the long run, any more than our support of military-back dictatorships who happen to be useful to our corporate interests. . . . and we can not afford to waste our strength on these useless foreign wars.

Meanwhile, I believe we will make ourselves credible Americans once again if we weigh in on the side of freedom even in Egypt.
 
Duck Rodgers said:
He understands it better than you. Freedom is not going to be the end result of this. The US exported inflation which is allowing subversive groups to prey on the Egyptian civilians for their own selfish purposes. That's what's happening, not fear mongering. Where is the real story to be found? Should I listen to the people on the streets, who are being used? The Middle East is overrun with official news organs, not really any use reading them. If Al-Jeezera English, or the Guardian, is best we've got, we're not getting the scoop.

Let's see Muburak step down right now, so we can see the "people's" choice for next in line.
Click to expand...

OK, I'm gonna try to understand this view.

I remember the days of martial law under Marcos in the Philippines. I remember how Benigno Aquino, the son of one of my friends, was gunned down on the tarmac at MIA. I saw from afar the filipino people taking to the streets to end martial law, and how the Philippine army caved and refused to fire into their friends and neighbors, and Corazon Aquino became an elected President.

Still, the interests went on prospering, and corruption didn't end.

Last June the filipino people elected the son of Corazon and Benigno Aquino as their president.

Democracy isn't perfect, some nations have no experience with it. Neither did we at one time. In the end, people just don't get better government unless they take responsibility for their government and assert their voice in a way that just can't be deflected.

I can understand there is danger things can go wrong in a mob. I don't know anything about Egypt from personal experience. I don't think agenda groups are the best folks to work the crowds.

I just hope the people in the streets can start enforcing some focus on their protest that is to the point of getting redress of their grievances. Say Mubarak announces that he will let the people set up their own candidates for election in two months, and invites the demonstrators to send some representatives, say twenty or so, to come to his office and air their differences. . . .

If Mubarak is our friend in principle why can't he deflect the issue from his dictatorship to helping set up a constitution and free elections like Iraq? He saw what happened there. . .

There might be an answer to that question which we have not discussed in this thread yet.

A lot of people don't understand that the Muslim fundamentalist/extremists government in Iran is not a Persian government at all. The Iranian revolution was not a home-directed popular revolt in one aspect---it was manipulated by foreign, specifically Lebanese extremist, and those are the folks in power today in Iran.

If related elements are indeed working the crowds in Egypt, and if they gain control, the next time the people mass in the streets the soldiers and tanks will open fire, and riot police will fill the concentration camps with dissidents.

The news just came on, Mubarak has announced he will not seek election again. This may be just the thing that can make for positive developments.
 
They have camels. That is sweet!

capt10ad585759974463bfc90ee250e3e875-10ad585759974463bfc90ee250e3e875-0.jpg
 
Marcus said:
Yup. Things have gotten pretty ugly the past 24 hours. Peaceful demonstration and civility have been replaced by fighting, looting and vandalism.

https://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/02/egypt.protests.scene/index.html

Then again, I have no clue. Just ask the resident hobbit.
Click to expand...

There is no mention in the article you linked to of looting or vandalism. If you expected that there would be no self-defense when the anti-Mubarak protestors (who have been ridiculously peaceful throughout this revolt) were attacked, then yes, you really have no clue. Was an entirely peaceful revolution a requirement of a democratic revolution? Has there ever been an entirely peaceful overthrow of a government? Does the fact that violence has finally occurred indicate to you, somehow, that the goals of the demonstrators are not what they have seemed to be all along? That in spite of every signal to the contrary, the people do not desire freedom and democracy, but rather seek only to install a different kind of dictatorship than the one they been living under all these years?

Or is your point here just to express some kind of sick glee over the violence? To celebrate the reports of this violence as if it were a victory for your side -- the un-thinkers -- as if it had anything to do with your larger point that an extremist Muslim regime waits at the end of this -- which it doesn't, and which it doesn't.
 
If you guys want some good updates from someone who is in the middle of things, like Nicholas D. Kristof on Facebook.
 
Stickler said:
There is no mention in the article you linked to of looting or vandalism. If you expected that there would be no self-defense when the anti-Mubarak protestors (who have been ridiculously peaceful throughout this revolt) were attacked, then yes, you really have no clue. Was an entirely peaceful revolution a requirement of a democratic revolution? Has there ever been an entirely peaceful overthrow of a government? Does the fact that violence has finally occurred indicate to you, somehow, that the goals of the demonstrators are not what they have seemed to be all along? That in spite of every signal to the contrary, the people do not desire freedom and democracy, but rather seek only to install a different kind of dictatorship than the one they been living under all these years?

Or is your point here just to express some kind of sick glee over the violence? To celebrate the reports of this violence as if it were a victory for your side -- the un-thinkers -- as if it had anything to do with your larger point that an extremist Muslim regime waits at the end of this -- which it doesn't, and which it doesn't.
Click to expand...

I agree, the smug cynicism in this thread is repulsive.

The next govt will be less secular...that doesnt mean that this is 1979 -- its not.
 
oh god...

Never said Islam was the driving force here, merely arguing against Marcus vision of a brutal fundamentalist regime.

Secondly, globalization, at least for countries like Egypt, is unequivocally a boon.

Over and over and over we see that third world countries that embrace market liberalization and free trade see the material well-being of their citizenry improve dramatically. But you arent interested in data, you're more interested in being smugly condescending to those of us who are 'too foolish to see that we're getting played by the elites'
 
Stickler said:
There is no mention in the article you linked to of looting or vandalism.
Click to expand...

You're correct. It doesn't mention these things in the article I posted. Silly me. I thought you were on top of the situation and wouldn't need a specific link for every single thing happening in Egypt. Here you go.

https://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-britain-egypt-antiquities-idUSTRE7114X420110202

Egypt has been rocked by an unprecedented nine days of demonstrations against President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year-rule, and fears are high for the country's priceless heritage after looters broke into the Egyptian Museum in Cairo last week.
Click to expand...

I think there is also a mention of 2000 year old mummies being destroyed. There are also reports of cars being overturned, pavers being pulled out of the roads for throwing, Molotov cocktails being thrown, etc.

If you expected that there would be no self-defense when the anti-Mubarak protestors (who have been ridiculously peaceful throughout this revolt) were attacked, then yes, you really have no clue. Was an entirely peaceful revolution a requirement of a democratic revolution? Has there ever been an entirely peaceful overthrow of a government? Does the fact that violence has finally occurred indicate to you, somehow, that the goals of the demonstrators are not what they have seemed to be all along? That in spite of every signal to the contrary, the people do not desire freedom and democracy, but rather seek only to install a different kind of dictatorship than the one they been living under all these years?
Click to expand...

When you get hit, you typically hit back. So no, it doesn't surprise me that the situation is devolving into this mess regardless of what side started the violence. I'm shocked that the situation stayed as peaceful as it did for so long.

Regarding what the people will and won't accept, in these situations the people don't always have the final say in who takes control or what form of government is implemented. I can show you many, many more examples of civilian uprisings that resulted in a more oppressive government than what you could show me as a positive result of said uprisings.

Or is your point here just to express some kind of sick glee over the violence? To celebrate the reports of this violence as if it were a victory for your side -- the un-thinkers -- as if it had anything to do with your larger point that an extremist Muslim regime waits at the end of this -- which it doesn't, and which it doesn't.
Click to expand...

I take no joy in what is happening in Egypt. Many, many more people are going to be injured if not killed before this is all said and done. There is nothing good about that. Show me where I have "celebrated" in reporting the situation as it now stands?

Regarding the rest of your post, meh. I was called out for being clueless. And honestly, I hope I'm wrong about where I think this is all headed. I'd much rather see a truly democratic state that can be a friend and ally of the U.S. I'll refrain from posting anymore in this thread. We'll know soon enough what transpires. Honestly, I hope I'm wrong. Realistically I don't think I will be.
 
From Robert D. Kaplan...

SOURCE

The New Arab World Order

Don't mistake the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt for 1978 Iran. But that doesn't mean that U.S. diplomacy in the Arab world is going to be any less complicated going forward.

BY ROBERT D. KAPLAN | JANUARY 28, 2011

The most telling aspect of the anti-regime demonstrations that have rocked the Arab world is what they are not about: They are not about the existential plight of the Palestinians under Israeli occupation; nor are they at least overtly anti-Western or even anti-American. The demonstrators have directed their ire against unemployment, tyranny, and the general lack of dignity and justice in their own societies. This constitutes a sea change in modern Middle Eastern history.

Of course, such was the course of demonstrations against the Shah of Iran in 1978 and 1979, before that revolution was hijacked by Islamists. But in none of these Arab countries is there a charismatic Islamic radical who is the oppositional focal point, like Ayatollah Khomeini was; nor are the various Islamist organizations in the Arab world as theoretical and ideological in their anti-Americanism as was the Shiite clergy. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt functions to a significant extent as a community self-help organization and may not necessarily try to hijack the uprising to the extent as happened in Iran. And even Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is not quite so identified with American interests as was the shah. The differences between 2011 in Egypt and 1978 in Iran are more profound than the similarities.

Furthermore, whatever the outcome of these uprisings, it seems clear that Arabs and their new leaders will be focused for years to come on the imperfections within their own societies -- perhaps to a greater degree than on injustices committed by Israel and the West abroad. Indeed, in Tunisia the demonstrations were partially spurred by the WikiLeaks cables that showed Washington deeply ambivalent about the regime and not likely to stand with it in a crisis. Politics may thus become normalized in the Arab world, rather than radicalized. Remember: A signal goal of al Qaeda was the toppling of such regimes as Mubarak's, which oppressed their own people and were seen as toadies to American and Israeli interests. If Mubarak goes, al Qaeda will lose a recruiting argument.

But the dangers to U.S. interests of what comes next in the Arab world are hard to exaggerate. Were demonstrations to spread in a big way to Jordan and Saudi Arabia, a catastrophe could be looming. A more enlightened, pro-American regime than the one now in Jordan is hard to imagine. As for the Saudi royal family, it is probably the worst possible form of government for that country except for any other that might credibly replace it. Imagine all that weaponry the United States has sold the Saudis over the decades falling into the hands of Wahhabi radicals. Imagine Yemen were it divided once again into northern and southern parts, or with even weaker central control issuing from the capital city of Sanaa. The United States would be virtually on its own battling al Qaeda there.

Right now all these uprisings look somewhat the same, as they did in Eastern Europe in 1989. But like in Eastern Europe, each country will end up a bit differently, with politics reflecting its particular constituency and state of institutional and educational development. Poland and Hungary had relatively easy paths to capitalism and democracy; Romania and Bulgaria were sunk in abject poverty for years; Albania suffered occasional bouts of anarchy; and Yugoslavia descended into civil war that killed hundreds of thousands of people. The Arab world is in some ways more diverse than Eastern Europe, and we should therefore heed the uniqueness of each country's political and historical situation in calibrating U.S. policy.

President Barack Obama's administration should stand up for first principles of civil society, nonviolence, and human rights everywhere; and where an autocrat appears on the way out, as happened in Tunisia and might happen in Egypt, the United States can play a constructive role in easing his removal, even as it reaches out to the new political forces at play. American diplomacy in the Arab world is about to become even more intricate. No longer will it be a matter of having one telephone number to call in each country. Henceforth, Washington will have to deal with dozens of political personalities to get the same things done as it used to with just one leader. Democracy equals complexity.
Click to expand...
 
I'm sure you'll say this is irrelevant, but regardless of temporary spikes in food prices caused by policies emanating from global warming hysteria, global hunger has decreased in every region of the world over the last quarter century.

2hcdjic.jpg



besides in countries like egypt food prices don't change - only the size of the subsidy does.
 
Marcus said:
You're correct. It doesn't mention these things in the article I posted. Silly me. I thought you were on top of the situation and wouldn't need a specific link for every single thing happening in Egypt. Here you go.

https://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-britain-egypt-antiquities-idUSTRE7114X420110202



I think there is also a mention of 2000 year old mummies being destroyed. There are also reports of cars being overturned, pavers being pulled out of the roads for throwing, Molotov cocktails being thrown, etc.
Click to expand...

Well, naturally. But there are indications that at least some of the looting (and probably a great deal of it) has been done by undercover police in an attempt to make the demonstrators look like vandals. In return, the demonstrators are doing things like forming human walls, locked arm in arm, around museums, to protect them from looters. Muslims are protecting Christian churches, and vice versa.

When you get hit, you typically hit back. So no, it doesn't surprise me that the situation is devolving into this mess regardless of what side started the violence. I'm shocked that the situation stayed as peaceful as it did for so long.

Regarding what the people will and won't accept, in these situations the people don't always have the final say in who takes control or what form of government is implemented. I can show you many, many more examples of civilian uprisings that resulted in a more oppressive government than what you could show me as a positive result of said uprisings.
Click to expand...

Well, that's debatable. But it seems clear in this instance that the masses aren't going to accept anything other than the free exercise of their political will; I see every indication that this can only end with a secular and democratic government in Egypt. One can always be wrong, but I am completely confident that I am not.

I take no joy in what is happening in Egypt. Many, many more people are going to be injured if not killed before this is all said and done. There is nothing good about that. Show me where I have "celebrated" in reporting the situation as it now stands?
Click to expand...

People who measure the value of life in any kind of realistic way don't usually issue utterances of "Ha!" as the anticipated result of the mass killings and dark days which you claim to expect. They don't usually respond with smug, sarcastic salvos about how they "have no clue," when the violence breaks, as if the violence is evidence that they were right all along. The violence does not prove you right. It is, in fact, completely irrelevant to either of our arguments. So it seemed a bit celebratory to me, in kind of an awful way, that you would post news of the violence and connect it to a sort of self-congratulatory claim of victory within this discussion.

Perhaps I sell you short. And if so I'll owe you an apology, but you asked, and that is how I see it.


Regarding the rest of your post, meh. I was called out for being clueless. And honestly, I hope I'm wrong about where I think this is all headed. I'd much rather see a truly democratic state that can be a friend and ally of the U.S. I'll refrain from posting anymore in this thread. We'll know soon enough what transpires. Honestly, I hope I'm wrong. Realistically I don't think I will be.
Click to expand...

We can agree that we both hope you are wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top